- Dec 13, 1999
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- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
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Double Bass Looking for a pickup that can be taken on and off multiple basses
- Thread starter Sam Dingle
- Start date
The logic checks out but @Ed Fuqua and the late Peter Kowald used and both have different but huge, full sounds. I think it is something that just works out great in real life.
This track was recorded that way and I think the sound is strong and great:
And honestly, I couldn't get it to work well on the 3 basses I tried it on.
@Sam Dingle, one consideration about piezos in general, which is one of the stronger reasons many of us have looked at mics for low-to-moderate volume situations, is that switching between arco and pizz usually requires changes to at least volume and possibly also EQ...
... Because arco produces so much of a stronger vibration than pizz does. Mics (air, non-contact) get around that problem, allowing for quick transitions from arco to pizz and vice versa.
If you can live with that in your workshop environments, piezos are great. But it's also something that students would benefit from learning about.
... Because arco produces so much of a stronger vibration than pizz does. Mics (air, non-contact) get around that problem, allowing for quick transitions from arco to pizz and vice versa.
If you can live with that in your workshop environments, piezos are great. But it's also something that students would benefit from learning about.
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The mic wrapped and stuck behind the tailpiece is a tried and true method. When we're talking amplification for kid players were not fussing about possible damping of vibrations. I used it before the 1st decent pickups were available - a Barcus Berry in my case. It's not as convenient or feedback proof as a pickup, but it gets a good sound. For a school environment though, no. Get a cheap piezo. I had forgotton about the bp100. That would be a great choice.
Over the years I learned by experience that the most important factors with students are simplicity, toughness, and reliability. If a system of any type has any sort of weakness, a kid will find it. The ones that have worked the best for me have been the basic K&K, the basic Vic's, and to some extent the BP100, although it has some drawbacks. No mics, no stick-ons, nothing that requires much tweaking or EQ adjustments. You simply don't have the time to deal with anything that takes more than minimal setup and repair or replacement when something goes wrong, as it will. It was surprising to me that some of the students had a pretty sophisticated idea of what they wanted the bass to sound like and so had to make an effort to deal with that as well. It's all part of the educational experience for everyone involved. If a student progresses to the point that they are interested in their own system, then you move onto the next phase.
The problem with bridge wing pickups like the k&k and Vic's is that every bridge is different and you probably don't want to get into shimming or sanding students basses. The BP100 allows for quick on-off with no modifications. Pop it on in 30 seconds and you're ready to go.
This is true, although it usually wasn't an issue or was easily corrected with some judicious shimming or filing. I didn't worry about it because it wasn't anything that would alter of damage anything on the instrument itself.
The BP100 has it's good points as you mentioned but it could be rather putzy and the little clips could go flying at inconvenient times. One thing about them I wouldn't have expected was the number of students who just didn't like the sound of the BP100 and how that would affect their enthusiasm and focus. It would be fine out front but more than one kid described what he heard from the amp sounded like"a portable radio". It was an issue that had to be dealt with, and just saying "live with it" wasn't the best solution IMO. The other pickups avoided this problem.
It's always been a compromise between sound quality and practicality. I have personally been using an EAP for most uses for years, but wouldn't use it for student situations because of setup considerations as well as care needed to avoid damaging the small diameter wire. The wing pickups I mentioned have pretty bomb proof construction and sound quite good with a minimum of adjustment.
- Jan 12, 2004
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- Owner, Stand Up Guy Basses (Repair/Sell/Buy upright basses)
As someone already mentioned, you really don't want to have to sand or file down a bunch of bridges to fit pickups.
I agree that buying a few inexpensive piezo "wing" pickups is the way to go. If they fit the wing, great! If not, get some four-for-a-dollar plastic clamps and just clip to the underside of the bridge. Will they occasionally move around or get knocked off? Yes, and then the students can re-fit them, and think about how and why the sound is being produced. Pic attached.
Also, I suggest adding this to your camper brochure: "Bass students who do not have a pickup can buy one at the camp." That way you don't have to worry about the pickups disappearing.
Cheers,
Paul
I agree that buying a few inexpensive piezo "wing" pickups is the way to go. If they fit the wing, great! If not, get some four-for-a-dollar plastic clamps and just clip to the underside of the bridge. Will they occasionally move around or get knocked off? Yes, and then the students can re-fit them, and think about how and why the sound is being produced. Pic attached.
Also, I suggest adding this to your camper brochure: "Bass students who do not have a pickup can buy one at the camp." That way you don't have to worry about the pickups disappearing.
Cheers,
Paul
Something that should be emphasized in this context is that another advantage of the pickups I mentioned is their cost, which is relatively quite inexpensive. A buying in bulk of Vics is a great idea.
All good ideas. Since I've taught at the Webster Summer Jazz Camps for many years and had this problem just last summer I used my Remic Green ( yeah I know it's to expensive for your purposes) on a Cello and a Double bass. Based on that experience
I guess, I'm in the microphone camp, provided they can have the chance to try it first and they haven't used a pickup before. Pickups are more convenient for sure, so Vic's sound like a great solution as well. Just my take.
I guess, I'm in the microphone camp, provided they can have the chance to try it first and they haven't used a pickup before. Pickups are more convenient for sure, so Vic's sound like a great solution as well. Just my take.
Bridge wing pickups are typically pressure sensitive whereas piezo disks are more sensitive to bending than to pressure. So one or the other can be better for a certain mounting place.
I have no experience with the Vic's. Sometimes bridge wing pickups are made from two piezo disks , which might either be a higher impedance higher signal level or lower impedance lower signal level.
I use a single wood sandwiched cut to form piezo disk for the bridge feet of my EUB and need to change my buffer electronics to get enough signal level out of it.
A BP-100 can be made cheap with two piezo disks and two office paper clips. If it rattles remove the wire handles after you placed it. Piezos wired in parallel (not good without individual buffering but in series the impedance rises a lot).
With some wood and/or cork shims and stacked (same orientation for bending sensitivity, not relevant for pressure) the same piezo disk arrangement can be tried in the bridge wing.
The cable connection to the piezo disk is very delicate, so better get some where the piezo side is sealed.
A piezo disk can also be used with a C-clamp as was mentioned before. A certain mass of the clamp might be needed (idea of the SoundClip).
A cheap contact mic can be made with an electret capsule that is completely airtight (front and back where the PCB is) and applied to the bridge or bass top with the inner membrane in parallel to the top. If the capsule is not completely sealed (specially also the back), it would be very feedback sensitive. If you only seal the back but seal the front with putty to the top you can easily demonstrate a non-perfect seal that leads to early feedback.
You need a power adapter (battery, capacitor, resistor) to power the electret. If you don't like to build even simple electronics get an electret mic with a battery adapter.
The Soundclip might be way overpriced, but since it is ugly and needs to be removed after playing, the risk that it vanishes with a student is rather low.
The Shadow SH-951 is a one element Underwood clone and the SH-950 the two element one. They are less expensive than the Underwood, but thicker. They use thick pressure sensitive piezo ceramic elements. Maybe having one of both would be a good idea too.
I like the Shadow Nanoflex SH-965NFX a lot better than the Realist, it might even sound better with only one foil installed and connected, but I prefer it for a good bowed pizz mix, like for tango. The pizz is a bit soft and less driving.
A (dynamic) instrumental mic in foam under the bridge or tailpiece is a good idea too. But the signal might need an impedance transformer or mic preamp. Omni or side addressed mics might be best but others like the Sm-57 work well too.
Students who do not have anything to amplify the bass should not be too picky soundwise for the course. You can make a lesson checking different options with different basses with the students, talk about prices too (some options are a bit expensive). So they can decide what they may use in the future. But for the course a US$30 to US$60 pickup or a cheap DIY solution should work.
For the lesson I would recommend one bridge wing, one bridge foot, one piezo disk on bridge surface, one contact mic and an air mic in foam and/or suspended with the rubber band at bridge feet/underlength method.
Might need at least two hours to check out.
Students should give a deposit for a pickup borrowed for the course that should at least cover the cost of the borrowed solution. It should be mentioned in the participation information.
Just my ideas…
I have no experience with the Vic's. Sometimes bridge wing pickups are made from two piezo disks , which might either be a higher impedance higher signal level or lower impedance lower signal level.
I use a single wood sandwiched cut to form piezo disk for the bridge feet of my EUB and need to change my buffer electronics to get enough signal level out of it.
A BP-100 can be made cheap with two piezo disks and two office paper clips. If it rattles remove the wire handles after you placed it. Piezos wired in parallel (not good without individual buffering but in series the impedance rises a lot).
With some wood and/or cork shims and stacked (same orientation for bending sensitivity, not relevant for pressure) the same piezo disk arrangement can be tried in the bridge wing.
The cable connection to the piezo disk is very delicate, so better get some where the piezo side is sealed.
A piezo disk can also be used with a C-clamp as was mentioned before. A certain mass of the clamp might be needed (idea of the SoundClip).
A cheap contact mic can be made with an electret capsule that is completely airtight (front and back where the PCB is) and applied to the bridge or bass top with the inner membrane in parallel to the top. If the capsule is not completely sealed (specially also the back), it would be very feedback sensitive. If you only seal the back but seal the front with putty to the top you can easily demonstrate a non-perfect seal that leads to early feedback.
You need a power adapter (battery, capacitor, resistor) to power the electret. If you don't like to build even simple electronics get an electret mic with a battery adapter.
The Soundclip might be way overpriced, but since it is ugly and needs to be removed after playing, the risk that it vanishes with a student is rather low.
The Shadow SH-951 is a one element Underwood clone and the SH-950 the two element one. They are less expensive than the Underwood, but thicker. They use thick pressure sensitive piezo ceramic elements. Maybe having one of both would be a good idea too.
I like the Shadow Nanoflex SH-965NFX a lot better than the Realist, it might even sound better with only one foil installed and connected, but I prefer it for a good bowed pizz mix, like for tango. The pizz is a bit soft and less driving.
A (dynamic) instrumental mic in foam under the bridge or tailpiece is a good idea too. But the signal might need an impedance transformer or mic preamp. Omni or side addressed mics might be best but others like the Sm-57 work well too.
Students who do not have anything to amplify the bass should not be too picky soundwise for the course. You can make a lesson checking different options with different basses with the students, talk about prices too (some options are a bit expensive). So they can decide what they may use in the future. But for the course a US$30 to US$60 pickup or a cheap DIY solution should work.
For the lesson I would recommend one bridge wing, one bridge foot, one piezo disk on bridge surface, one contact mic and an air mic in foam and/or suspended with the rubber band at bridge feet/underlength method.
Might need at least two hours to check out.
Students should give a deposit for a pickup borrowed for the course that should at least cover the cost of the borrowed solution. It should be mentioned in the participation information.
Just my ideas…
Thanks for the reply's everyone. Keep 'em coming if you have other options. Once again this is for the students who probably haven't ever played with other people, or have owned an upright less than a year. Can't get any sound out of the bass acousticlly. A mic is decent for kids who can produce an ok sound, but I just need a kid under 12 to be able to hear themselves when the rest of the band is full of kids just starting out.
I'll keep an eye out for a sound clip as I think that may be good, but I'm not dropping $400 on a pickup that's gonna be used one month out of the year lol. Anyone have one they wanna sell for less?
I'll keep an eye out for a sound clip as I think that may be good, but I'm not dropping $400 on a pickup that's gonna be used one month out of the year lol. Anyone have one they wanna sell for less?
Don't use a pickup, just mic the basses i say. Bring a couple clip on mics and done. Pickups sound like crap anyways. 
If they can't produce a good sound, a pickup wont fix that IMO.
If they can't produce a good sound, a pickup wont fix that IMO.
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I think you can get an Ischell contact mic with a 1/4" output and the battery powered option for around that price.
And there is a brand new Ehrlund on sale on Reverb rn for $303. Looks like it's normally $379, which is still cheaper than the Sound Clip. In that price range, the Ischell and Ehrlund both seem like vastly superior options to the Sound Clip.
