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Looking way to power up. Does this work?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by ENTiTY, May 2, 2004.


  1. ENTiTY

    ENTiTY

    May 2, 2004
    Finland
    Hello to all. My first post here, though I've been reading your posts for a year or so without registering. This definitely is an excellent place for a bassist to hang around and get information.

    I've had a this thought of having a powerful enough setup, with enough versatility, and which would fit quite well in low budget. What I'm talking here includes just powering the sound up and playing it back. The versatility would come from that you could plug in an any kind of pre-amp or effect prosessor you'd want. Below you can find what I've been thinking about and please comment firstly, does that even work, and if it would work, how good investment it would be.
    The idea is to split the sound with that power amplifier to two cabs other 4x10 and other 1x15.


    BEHRINGER EP2500 EUROPOWER BEHRINGER EP2500 EUROPOWER Amplifier, 2x 750W at 4 Ohms, 2x500W at 8 Ohms, 2x 1200 W at 2 Ohms, Bridgemode 1x 1500Wat 8 Ohms, 1x 2400W at 4 Ohms (1 kHz@0,1% THD, bothchannels driven), Input XLR+JACK, OutputSpeakon+BindingPost, damping factor >300 an 8 Ohm, depth40cm, 17kg

    AND

    Hartke VX 410 Hartke VX 410, Heavy-duty plywood construction, Four 10"proprietary drivers, One horn loaded high frequencytransducer , Power Handling: 400 Watts @ 8 Ohms, Ergonomic handles,Parallele 1/4"-Klinkeneingänge ( 66 cm , 39 cm , 66 cm )

    AND

    PEAVEY 115BVX BW 4OHM PEAVEY 115BVX BW Bassbox 1x15" Black Widow, 350 Watt (RMS),4 Ohm

    OR

    Hartke VX115 Hartke VX115 Bassbox, 15" Bass & Tweeter ;300 Watt @ 8Ohms; stable handles

    Cost: about 1 000 euros.

    What do you think? Thank you for your attention and sorry if my english isn't perfect, hope you'll get my point anyway. I'll post additional info if you'll need it.
     
  2. Mcrelly

    Mcrelly

    Jun 16, 2003
    Minnesota, USA
    I am not sure what you are asking us? Are you asking what is better: a big separate cab and amp VERSUS just enough back up to hear yourself??
     
  3. jobu3

    jobu3 Artist formerly known as Big Joe

    Feb 17, 2002
    Mountain Top, PA
    Welcome to TB! Great place to learn... A component system is usually the most bang for the buck with great versatility and headroom. This may be a great way to get you tone for just about ANY venue. I think that you are on the right track and I hate to be the one to burst your bubble here but, neither the Behringer Europowers or the Hartke VX series are all they're cracked up to be. Sure, they don't cost much, but you will lack in reliability and overall tone with lesser components such as these. :meh:

    My advice:
    Save more and/or look into used gear. ;)
     
  4. I think you are on the right track with a power amp, speaker component setup but you might want to do further research on your particular product choices.

    You will also need to add at least one pre-amp of your choice to get the power amp up to volume.

    I own a used QSC USA900 power amp and am very pleased with it.

    I also own an Avatar b115 and a B212 is in the mail. You may very well have heard of them by now on TB. Good cabs for a low budget. I'm afraid they don't ship outside the US though.
     
  5. Greetings, Entity!
    You certainly have done your homework where the specs are concerned! Im just learning/researching how to build a component setup as well, as Ive always been strictly about a head and cabs...but I hear the difference in other players rigs and I want that versatility! Do let us know what you decide and how it works.
     
  6. ENTiTY

    ENTiTY

    May 2, 2004
    Finland
    Thanks for all the comments. Maybe I should clear the things up a bit.

    1) I'm not that pro or our band isn't so big yet so it doesn't have to be the best quality, but something little better than my 65 w piece of ****.

    2) I live here in Finland so I won't be able to get all those products on the market in the US.

    3) I'm quite out of money right now, but I'm not buying right now, just planning.

    Now some questions:

    1) What power ratio should be between the power amp and the cabs?

    2) What equipment then do you suggest?

    3) Would that what I planned at first, even work?
     
  7. Mcrelly

    Mcrelly

    Jun 16, 2003
    Minnesota, USA
    can you give us a list of major brands that you can choose from in finland???

    American and European companies?
     
  8. Well, the first flaw in your plan is that the Hartke 4 x 10 VX seires cabinet is only rated at 400 watts. With a power amp that huge, you'd be likely to blow it unless using multiple cabinets, even then, I'm not sure, but I'm not expert on component systems.
     
  9. From what I understand a 400w cab would fit the bill. The big 1000w rigs are rarely cranked up. The extra watts are for headroom (clarity). I doubt you would ever need to push a rig past 400w. The extra headroom also protects your speakers from harsh clipped signals. A 200w amp constantly cranked out can do much more damage than a 1000w amp set at the same volume (loadness).
     
  10. Well, speaking as a fellow Finn, I doubt you´ll need all that power. Most venues are so small over here that I really can´t see much use for so big setup. I´d invest in one good cab (4x10 or 1x15, whichever sounds better to your ears); you can always add another one later if needed. Of course, if you are seriously GASing for such a formidable stack, no amount of reasoning is going to talk you out of it. ;) But I´ll bet you´ll grow tired of lugging two huge cabs to minuscule pubs and pizzerias pretty soon...

    About brands: check out Ashdown cabs, they´re pretty reasonably priced over here. You can buy them from www.soundata.fi Definitely keep an eye for used power amps, www.audiodivari.com is a good place to start looking.
     
  11. ENTiTY

    ENTiTY

    May 2, 2004
    Finland
    Thanks for all that additional information and links.

    Well that setup size could be a problem yes. My intention was that I would use one power amp to feed those two cabs, and I would, if possible with that, split the signal so that 1x15 would get all lows and 4x10 would get mids and highs. Comments please...

    Oh and that place, where I was going to buy.
    www.thomann.de
    I suppose it is the largest shipper in northern europe. And very settled prices. Maybe you've heard of it if you live in europe.

    And those questions I presented earlier, I didn't get them clear, atleast 1 and 3. Here they are again.

    1) What power ratio should be between the power amp and the cabs?

    3) Would that what I planned at first, even work?
     
  12. I considered biamping for a while myself, but decided to go for a simpler setup. It can be done, but you´ll need a biamp-capable preamp or a crossover to split the signal. If you decide to go that route, I´d suggest getting a 2x10 instead of 4x10. IMO it´s enough for mids and highs.
    1)It´s not very important as long as you don´t crank the amp. Best bet is to have the amp wattage and cab´s power handling roughly in the same ball park, give or take few hundred watts. For example a 500W amp and a 300W cab should be OK. The important thing is to have big enough amp so you won´t have to overload it.

    3) Sure it would work. But IMO it´s not the most practical solution. I think you could get by with half that stuff.

    BTW, check out www.musik-produktiv.de Bigger selection than Thomann and better prices on some gear too. I´ve found them fast and reliable.
     
  13. Transverz

    Transverz believer of the Low End Theory

    May 3, 2004
    Los Angeles, CA
    sup Entity,

    Just wanted to give a couple bits of my own advice...I've been playing in the current band I'm in for about 2-3 years now, gigging anywhere from 1-5 times a month, playing bass for the past year now. The advice that people are giving you regarding a simpler, lighter setup is GOLDEN. It's fantastic to have a rig with crazy versatility and options, but as you said, you weren't so big yet, and from what CoolHat said, if true, you really wouldn't need all that power most of the time...unless you were playing with super-loud bandmates? Even then, turning down would be a good idea...

    I play mostly all over the Southern California, USA area, including some well known venues and have never maxed out my power. I mostly have to turn down! And I'm only running an Ampeg B5R (350W @ 4ohms) out of a Avatar B410 cab (1400W RMS). I also play with a rhythm guitarist running a Marshall AVT150H (LOUD), a loud lead guitarist, and a loud drummer. And I easily drown them all out. Especially at practice, which is probably your most common place to play (unless you gig THAT much or don't practice enough hehe).

    My personal advice would be to go with a 350-400W rig for your first setup. If you want to go component styles, like other people have already said, get a decent preamp, that Behringer Amp you mentioned (of course it isn't the best but LOTS of watts for the price), and any decent 4x10 or 2x10 w/ 1x15. Personally, all the lugging around for shows is making me consider an even more compact setup than my 85lb 4x10 cab. Not too heavy before the show, but afterwards, you'd swear those things gain pounds!

    Anyway, regardless of what you do, my advice overall for your first rig is to remind you to think of ease of use, ease of transport, and ease on the wallet (for us not-yet-rockstar bands). For ease of use: There is already enough to worry about trying to get your band to go somewhere without using up all your time diagnosing sound problems seconds before a show. For ease of transport: As a bassist, your back can only take so much abuse. For ease on the wallet: Well, we all know how that is, as you already mentioned. Plus, you can save that money on a better bass, quality and convenient accessories, etc. THEN when you get more experience under your belt, you can hone in on more specific brand names and models that further tailor to your style and sound you will develop. I am currently in my gaining-experience stage myself, hence my simple, but respectable setup.

    Sorry for the extra long post. I didn't get much help with my first setup aside from all the cool people here at TB and just wanted to repay the favor. Good luck!

    -Transverz
     
  14. ENTiTY

    ENTiTY

    May 2, 2004
    Finland
    Transverz, I really must say that your post was encouraging and really made me think again. Well here's my new suggestion. I'm really no expert here so please comment.


    Peavey 210TVX™ 4 Ohm
    MSRP: $479.99

    Features
    175 Watts RMS continuous at 4 Ohms
    350 Watts program
    Two 10 inch Sheffield® bass speakers
    One phenolic dome tweeter w/ L-pad attenuator
    30 Hz to 15 kHz
    Compact, closed back
    Front-ported enclosure

    Dimensions and Weight
    Unpacked: 19.25" H x 24.63" W x 17.00" D - 61.60 lbs.


    AND


    Peavey 115BVX™ BW 4 Ohm
    MSRP: $389.99

    Features
    400 Watts RMS continuous
    800 Watts program
    Plywood construction
    15 inch Black Widow® 1502-4 speaker
    Specially ported enclosure
    Frequency response: 30 Hz to 3.5 kHz
    One 1/4 inch phone jack input connection

    Dimensions and Weight
    Unpacked: 27.50" H x 22.75" W x 20.00" D - 86.00 lbs.


    AND something for powering those up. Maybe:

    BEHRINGER EP1500 EUROPOWER BEHRINGER EP1500 EUROPOWER Amplifier, 2HE, Output-Power(RMS 1kHz) 2x 450W/4 Ohm, 2x 280W/8 Ohm, 2x 700W/2 Ohm,bridged 8/4 Ohm 900/1400W, Input XLR/Jack, outputspeakon/binding post, 16kg, depht: 41cm

    So now it would be 1 power amp feeding one 2x10 and one 1x15. Weight would be total 81 kg (176 lbs), that would be 20 kg more than me. And all costs something like 1100 €. What do you think? Still too much? Improvements?
     
  15. Transverz

    Transverz believer of the Low End Theory

    May 3, 2004
    Los Angeles, CA
    Hey Entity,

    No prob man. I'm glad you considered my opinions.

    Couple things about what you proposed:

    1) You still need a preamp. You may not want to plug your guitar straight into your poweramp hehe.

    2) Man, that's a heavy setup. I can understand two 40-60lb cabs (though that's a lot to me) but one 86lb and one 61lb cab? I'm not discouraging you, but just letting you know that's quite a bit to lug around! Just my opinion though.

    3) Seeing as though you are going to be running 2 ohms, 700watts per side is a LOT of power for playing small-medium venues. I understand you want headroom, but that is head and shoulders room! Again, just my opinion, but most big (like 300 people) rooms can be easily filled out by 350watts and that's with no PA help! I just came off playing a University ballroom with no PA help and man, I had to turn WAY down (350watts @ 4ohms). Point being that in my experience, 350watts can fill the common gigs with no PA help, and if you are worried about bigger gigs, most festivals or concerts mic or direct-line in your bass rig, meaning the cabs are nothing more than monitors...and even then, they got monitors on most respectable stages/venues. I think most gigging musicians can back me up on that one.

    But I do certainly the love of buying gear. Totally! So if your heart is set on buying a two cabs and a rockin' poweramp with a preamp, those 2x10s plus 1x15 at 700watts per side @ 2 ohms will ROCK THE HOUSE and the rest of the neighborhood, for sure! Glad you picked the lower powered Behringer 1500 over the 2500. That 2500 is lotsa watts! Pretty good price though! I just wanted to honestly tell you that I have played from house-parties, to backyards, to small bars, to clubs, to theatres, to outdoor festivals and I have never said "darn, if only I was louder!". That's a personal fact.

    I'm thinking about switching to a preamp/poweramp rig myself...see what you did! hahaha...thanks :hyper: But only because I want much better tone and the better preamps have tubes in them and produce much better tone than my B5R, in my opinion.

    -Transverz
     
  16. I like your cab choices.

    BUT!

    I think you can probably save some money and get a smaller power amp. 700W@4ohm per cab would be more than you would ever come close to using in your average club. I would look for something in the area of 300 to 400W@4ohm per cab. This would still be more than you need. You would never get the chance to miss those extra watts.
     
  17. OOPS! I got those amp figures wrong! Like you said it's 450w@4 ohms per cab for the Behringer power amp. I just checked it out online and based on the specs and price ($299.99 US) I would go for it!
     
  18. ENTiTY

    ENTiTY

    May 2, 2004
    Finland
    I don't know about the sound quality but I thought I could use about anything as a preamp with that setup, like guitar preamps, bass preamps, mic preamps, effect chains, digital multieffect and virtual amplification products, laptop computer, etc.

    What about that crossover. Is this a working solution?

    BEHRINGER
    CX2310 SuperX Pro

    Behringer CX2310 SuperX Pro stereo 2-way/ mono 3-wayCrossover with subwoofer-output, 24dB/Okt. Linkwitz/RileyFilter, Phase-switch for each output, switchable 25HzSubsonicfilter for each input, ALPS-Potentiometer, 19", 1U. 105 €.


    And for those cabs, I've got an alternative suggestion.

    + it isn't so heavy
    + it is a bit cheaper
    (- less power)
    - freq range is limited to 40 hz - 4 khz.


    Hartke 115TP - 1x15 Transporter Cabinet

    Special Dual Ported Cabinet Design Hartke 15" TP Aluminum-Cone Bass Driver Power Handling: 150 Watts @ 8 Ohms Frequency Response: 40 Hz To 2.5 kHz Sensitivity: 96 dB @ 1 W/1 M Voice Coil: 2" Magnet Weight: 60 Oz. Single 1/4" Input Dimensions: 24"(H) X 24"(W) X 15"(D) Weight: 51 lb.
    349 €

    AND

    210TP - 2x10 Transporter Cabinet

    Single-Chamber Sealed Cabinet Design Two Hartke 10" TP Aluminum-Cone Bass Drivers Power Handling: 150 Watts @ 8 Ohms Frequency Response: 50 Hz To 4 kHz Sensitivity: 94 dB @ 1 W/1 M Voice Coil: 1.5" Magnet Weight: 40 Oz. Single 1/4" Input Dimensions: 14"(H) X 24"(W) X 12"(D) Weight: 36 lb.
    265 €

    What do you think?
     
  19. Transverz

    Transverz believer of the Low End Theory

    May 3, 2004
    Los Angeles, CA
    Hmm...not quite sure what you are offering as solutions to solving your "missing" preamp, but here is what I know about bass rigs (apologies if you already know all this):

    guitar -> preamp -> poweramp -> cabinet(s)

    or

    guitar -> bass head -> cabinet(s)

    Basically same thing, except that the bass head can be replaced with what it really is, which is a preamp and a poweramp combined into one. Of course, all kinds of things can be a preamp (as long as it gives it a certain sound and basically readies the sound for amplification) but having a "bass preamp" will give you the kind of typical bass options into tone shaping and getting you the kind of sound you want (hopefully!).

    Here are some examples, some of which I've been inspired to look into!

    Ampeg SVP-PRO
    http://ampeg.com/products.htm?product=82&catid=31

    Sansamp RBI
    http://sansamp.com/rbi.html

    BBE BMAX
    http://www.bbesound.com/products/bass_preamps/BMAX/index.asp

    These are some typical preamps. Of course there are higher and lower priced solutions, but these are some I myself have been considering. And of course, all kinds of things can "preamp" the bass, from DI boxes to stombox preamps to even those things you mentioned that might not be meant as a bass preamp, but like I said, some things do the job better than others as they were made to do just that.

    Will a crossover work? Actually, I think it can! Isn't that basically what a preamp really is? A simplified crossover, giving more "bass friendly" options? Oh, and also control over certain types of drive and tube saturation (if present) and I think certain preamps have limiters/compressors and such.

    If I'm totally wrong on this, I'm sure the more experienced TB'ers will correct me. But this is my understanding of as bass rig.

    Lotsa luck!

    -Transverz
     
  20. Frank Martin

    Frank Martin Bitten by the luthiery bug...

    Oct 8, 2001
    Budapest, Hungary, EU
    Then now based on their reputation, I would NOT go for it.