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Maiden Voyage, final chord of bridge...

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by moley, May 4, 2003.


  1. moley

    moley

    Sep 5, 2002
    Hampshire, UK
    I've been playing this tune long enough, but I'd never actually thought about what I'd call this chord, the way Herbie voices it.

    The voicing I've got for it is this:

    Bass - C#
    Piano LH - G# B D# E
    Piano RH - A# A# (octaves)

    If it weren't for that A# in the RH, it'd just be C#m9, but, with the A# I would guess at C#m13?

    However C#m13 isn't a chord symbol one would be used to seeing, and I'm not sure whether using it in a lead sheet is a good idea?

    I guess I could call it Emaj7#11/C#...

    Or maybe the A# is just part of the voicing, and I should just call it C#m7?

    What do you guys think?
     
  2. Wrong Robot

    Wrong Robot Guest

    Apr 8, 2002
    I don't think putting C#m13 is very uncommon in chord sheets. Maybe a little bit, but if you are playing with capable musicians, they shouldn't think twice about it.
    check it out
    Teen Town

    granted there are no minor 13ths....everything else is :D

    who is this for?
     
  3. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    According to my keyboard instructor, it's a Dbmin6/9 chord voiced E Ab Bb Eb with Db in the bass(the E being a minor third above the Db). You can also look at this chord as a EMaj7b5/Db. In the Sher Real Book it's noted as Dbmin9(13).
     
  4. moley

    moley

    Sep 5, 2002
    Hampshire, UK
    WR - no, they're just 13 chords, not m13 chords. I've only ever seen 13 associated with dominant 7th chords - e.g. F13, A13 etc. (like in Teen Town). I've never seen 'em used with minor 7th chords. So I don't suppose most people would be used to reading them

    Phil - I think your instructor is wrong, I think the chord contains a B. I tend to think that with a minor 6/9 chord, you wouldn't voice it with a minor 7th. In general, I think, if you included a 7th, it'd be major.

    Dbm9(13) seems like a reasonable way to notate it.

    As an aside - do you think it should be Db not C#? It does make sense, in that we're dealing with bs not #s in the rest of the tune.

    Phil, as you've got the Sher Real Book (I assume) - could you tell me how they've spelled the melody for that bar (and the upbeat leading into it). I'd be interested to know. I've done it as Eb E E F# C#. I wonder if it's acceptable to use those enharmonics for the melody, but then have the chord symbol as Dbm9(13) rather than C#m9(13)? That would mean the melody implies C# minor, but the chord is Db minor...

    But I think that for the melody, it's easier to read in C# minor... thoughts?
     
  5. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    You wouldn't vioice a 6 chord with a seventh because by definition it has a sixth instead of a seventh. It would be a 13 chord then.



    In the book the voicing doesn't include the fifth or the 7th, in which case notating it as Dbmin9(13) is somewhat ambiguos when it looks and sounds like they mean Dbmin6/9. On the recording, this chord is played low and the B you may be hearing could just be overtones.



    I haven't seen it notated as such anywhere, but I haven't seen every chart of it either, not by a long shot. :D

    If I'm looking at Eb I'm going to assume a F# is a Gb and a C# is a Db. If I saw a chart with Eb E E F# C#, I would probably re-write it with the flatted notes instead for my own purposes.

    In the book you have beat 4 of the bar prior to Dbmin6/9 Eb Fb(1/8) going to Fb Gb(1/8) going to Db.
     
  6. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    First (and I sound like a broken record by saying this), it's important to remember that jazz nomenclature is not an exact science, and is meant to be left open to interpretation. If Herbie ever voiced anything exactly "by the book", I'd wonder what was wrong with him...it's a minor sonority, and any good player will season any chord to taste. So he's playing the 7th and the 13th? No big deal, it's just what he was hearing - it doesn't mean that it needs to be notated that way.

    Second, lots of guys play that chord different ways. A couple of weeks ago I played three nights with pianist Harry Pickens, and he played "Maiden Voyage" on two of those nights. The first time he played through the tune, he was playing roots along with the voicings, and I noticed that he was playing a Gb (F#) in the bass at that point, which made the chord come out as a Gbsus. From that point on, I just played a Gb there instead of a Db, and it sounded fine. The chords have the same basic function anyway. I've heard that chord subbed for something else before, but can't remember what it was exactly....but the point is, it doesn't really matter - what matters is that whatever harmony is played at that point makes sense to the bandleader/arranger at the time they play/write it, and that we as accompanists have the ears to hear what they are playing and the openmindedness to go with it and try to make it sound good and feel right. At that point, what's on the paper really doesn't make any difference.
     
  7. moley

    moley

    Sep 5, 2002
    Hampshire, UK
    Yes, I realise this. As a pianist, I don't play things by the book either.

    Well, I've played this one to my dad too (he's got a great ear for harmony, sharper than mine) - and he agrees with the voicing I came up with - G# B D# E A# A#.

    You said that the New Real Book calls that chord Dbmin9(13)... To me, that pretty clearly implies a minor 7th chord w/ 9th and 13th. Which is exactly what the voicing I came up with is.

    Many of The New Real Book charts are actually verified by the composers, aren't they?




    Anyhow, looking back at this lead sheet I'm writing for it, I dunno, Dbm9(13) sorta looks out of place a little?

    I've got:

    Dsus Fsus Dsus Fsus Ebsus Dbm9(13) Dsus Fsus.

    I've got all these sus chords (i.e. pretty general - not implying any particular voicing), and then Dbm9(13), which is fairly specific :meh:

    I'm thinking maybe I should just go for Dbm7 for that one, and leave it open for interpretation.
     
  8. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY

    That's what Jamey does, and that's the most common way I see it written. We should do a thread on "open ended" versus "specific" changes sometime. :)
     
  9. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    The voicing you use is the voicing you use, if it works for you and your listeners it's all good.

    Are they??? Verified against what? The last time they played the tune, when it was first conceived or how it was played on a particular recording? Take your pick. :D
     
  10. moley

    moley

    Sep 5, 2002
    Hampshire, UK
    Here's a quote from www.shermusic.com -

     
  11. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    Are you saying you get my point or are you making another one? ;)
     
  12. moley

    moley

    Sep 5, 2002
    Hampshire, UK
    Which point in particular is that?
     
  13. ConU

    ConU

    Mar 5, 2003
    La Belle Province
    It says that in my "illegal" real book too,and they call it Db7sus4;)
     
  14. moley

    moley

    Sep 5, 2002
    Hampshire, UK
    Nah, I don't buy that. The chord is definitely minor - there's very definitely an E in there.
     
  15. ConU

    ConU

    Mar 5, 2003
    La Belle Province
    "were taken directly from the composers' own lead sheets"...
    the last 4 bars of B,they have as just Db7sus4...E nat. in the melody but Gb and Db too,Ab and Bnat.:go figure...jazz...hmmnnn:confused: :D
     
  16. ConU

    ConU

    Mar 5, 2003
    La Belle Province
    c.1969 Hancock music.used by permission
    Dbm9(13)
    The other chords are spelled as " 9sus "