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Melodic minor mode? (Music theory)

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Roger DeLarge, May 13, 2017.


  1. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101

    yes it as a raised 4th or #11. No avoid notes on a Lydian chord.

    I don't get your second question...or was it a question about the #9?
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  2. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Can a Lydian have a subtonic function with the raised tri4th
    Does Lydian has a subdominant function with that "tritonic " raised 4th?
     
  3. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Does the Dominant chord mean the dominant function?
     
  4. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Does the dominant 7 with #11 have that usual and expected 4th!
     
  5. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    Well, I'm not good with all those definitions in english but usually a lydian dominant is a substitution chord found in reharmonization.

    Also the lydian dominant Is the substitution chord for the V7 often find in min
    Usually the dominant term is used for a chord that is formed of a major triad with a flat seven even if it gets mixed up with the dominant chord function of the key. The proper extensions over the dominant chord are very important here.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  6. Nice video explaining this idea...
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
    AngelCrusher likes this.
  7. Bob_Ross

    Bob_Ross Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 29, 2012
    For a moment forget whether the concept of "Mixolydian #11" makes sense or not. In fact, let's momentarily forget about the names commonly used to identify scales & modes and ordered ascending pitch class collections. Instead, let's call this collection Dave. Dave consists of these notes:

    G-A-B-C#-D-E-F

    How does Dave "function"?

    Where does Dave "resolve"?
     
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  8. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    I'm not all-knowing Groove Master but I still cannot get that question answered.
    Does the Mixolydian #11 have the 4th or not.
    My answer is YES it has; therefore, your Dave scale is Lydian because it does have the raised 4th degree.
     
  9. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Here are two excerpts about that "Course" from Nettle's book.
    I know it for the beginners, not for highly educated musicians.

    Intro1.PNG
    Intro2.PNG Intro3.PNG
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
    Groove Master likes this.
  10. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    1) Not as a V7.

    2) It will not resolve to the I because its missing the 1/2 step resolution between C to B.
     
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  11. Bob_Ross

    Bob_Ross Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 29, 2012
    11 = 4
    #11 = #4
    So your question "Does the Mixolydian #11 have the 4th or not" is vague, or incomplete. Does it have the #4? By definition, yes. Does it have the natural 4? By definition, no. Which are you asking?
     
  12. Bob_Ross

    Bob_Ross Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 29, 2012
    The I of what? Dave is agnostic; there's nothing about G-A-B-C#-D-E-F that inherently points to a single particular tonic. Dave is simply a collection that suggests -- via cultural familiarity -- enough unease or instability that we (probably) want to hear it move to a more consonant harmony. And if you insist that that movement should be called "resolution" then we're back to the trap that causes one to believe there's an absolute and audible difference between a Lydian b7 collection and a Mixolydian #11 collection.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  13. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    I think you, kind of answered my question about the subdominant function
    I don't agree with your statement.
    I still remember your comment about added tensions and chord qualities.
    Anyway, from the same Nettle's book , C mixolydian has that avoid note 4 ( 11).
    Also, there is no need to emphasize the 11th degree and minimize the value of the 4th.
     
  14. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    I'm going to go with F#maj7.
     
  15. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    Well, I think I know what you mean but think about this: the term Mixolydian comes from the mode of the Major scale as the V7 degree by its function and the way it is built, then it doesn't make sense to use the term Mixolydian #11 for another chord especially if it doesn't function as a V7 and it is not built from the fifth degree of a scale. The V7(#11) or V9,13(#11) is a dominant lydian that comes from the IV degree of a minor melodic scale. Since the minor melodic scale doesn't represent or fulfill the sound of a minor tonality because of the missing tones that should be present in a minor key, the minor melodic modes are very useful to build chords with very specific functions that have nothing to do within a tonality.

    There is a very basic explanation why this is called Harmony ;). The ear wants harmony....
     
  16. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    Not just that: it could resolves to many places like: A Maj or minor, F# minor, D maj or D min. There might be others that I don't think of but the basic idea is to harmonize a note and make a smooth resolution to the next chord.
     
  17. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    I'll try to answer this the best way I can: The minor melodic scale is not a scale that represent a minor tonality. The minor harmonic scale does because like the major scale, we can built those dominant and subdominant chords in the tonality (V and IV). The IV mode of the minor melodic doesn't have a subdominant function because of the dominant lydian chord that is been built from that degree and serves more as a tritone sub for the altered chord built on the VII degree of the minor melodic then a IV function in a key.

    The two more important scales in western harmony are the major scale and the minor harmonic scale. The other ones are .............well let call them....... spices :)

    Which was the answer of my post #60: the only difference between a G7 alt or G+7(#9) and Db9 (#11) is the note that the bass will play ;-)
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
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  18. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Thank you.
    That's where I was going with my lame questions.
     
    Groove Master likes this.
  19. Bob_Ross

    Bob_Ross Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 29, 2012
    Right, you're using the name "Mixolydian" to infer more than simply pitch class (or interval) content. Which obviously has value, I'm not dismissing that. What I'm saying is that, since scale construction is more a historical curiosity than a mandatory requirement for usage, and since scale function can be obfuscated or deceptive, neither of those qualities are inherent to the note collection. They're inherent to one -- and only one -- of the many names given to that note collection, a name which is a tool for analysis, not performance, or composition, or improvisation, or transcription, or...

    Meanwhile the notes don't care how they were derived or where they're supposed [sic] to go...nor what you call them. They're still going to be G-A-B-C#-D-E-F regardless of whether one calls them "Lydian b7" or "Mixolydian #11" or "Dave". And a sensitive musician is going to use that pitch class collection in a way that is contextually appropriate irrespective of what name they may decide to use to describe it.

    It's just like the way someone suggested earlier in this thread that you could think of the melodic minor scale as "the major scale with a flatted third." Yes, it makes absolutely no sense functionally to think of it that way -- it's like going to the paint store and asking for a can of "anti-white" when you want to paint something black -- but at the end of the day you wind up playing the exact same notes regardless of what you decided to call those notes.
     
    Groove Master likes this.
  20. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    Your collection of pitch: G-A-B-C#-D-E-F are a reflection of someone knowing what is "under the hood" of a G7 going to F# for example. It is not that obvious for someone that only see or play a G7 and not knowing that the hidden extensions are the major ninth, the #11 and the major thirteen while that G7 functions as bII7, IV7 or bVII7....
     

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