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Melodic minor pentatonic

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by ba55i5t, May 3, 2017.


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  1. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    If you need the root note spelled out for you, you are going to have a bad time with this kind of improv.
     
  2. ba55i5t

    ba55i5t

    May 24, 2006
    Ehhhhhhhhhhhh
     
  3. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    It's just how it is. I'm sorry I usually expect people new to something a little more open to learning it. It seems like here you have a small grasp of what you are talking about yet still want to argue for some reason.
    This stuff takes a while to figure out. It really does. It won't happen overnight and it gets deep.
     
  4. Nickweissmusic

    Nickweissmusic Knows all intervals from one Fred, to Juan octave Commercial User

    Jan 26, 2014
    San Diego, CA
    I teach lessons and perform live music in and around San Diego CA. Sometimes I even make money doing it!
    And lest we think I am some theory elitist spouting edicts from an ivory tower atop a George Russel bust, I didn't really figure it out until I sat down with my guitar for a couple minutes.
     
  5. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    Yeah the beatto vid was a two watcher for me. I paused a few times. Etc. Then I saw the shapes connecting to the original scale it all clicked. It's killer. You can come up with some sweet lines.
     
  6. ba55i5t

    ba55i5t

    May 24, 2006
    I don't really want to argue - I want to learn. I see that C, D, E, G, and Ab are there, but I guess I'm just not used to seeing pentatonic scales that don't use the root of the key that they're implying is all.

    Yep this will take a while.

    EDIT: So this scale is 2, b3, 4, 5, 6? But in 5, 6, 2, b3, 4 order?
     
    Spin Doctor likes this.
  7. You don't use the F. Note that the C major b6 pentatonic is based on the notes of the F melodic minor. F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D-E.

    But in this case, this pentatonic itself, is based off the 5th of the F melodic minor, which is C. If you included the F, then you would be adding the 4th to a C major pentatonic and the "general" point of the pentatonic is to avoid using the 4th and 7th so that you don't have to resolve any notes.

    If you don't have to resolve any notes, then all the notes work, and that's essentially what makes a pentatonic easy to use. I'd have to review the video to see where he says you can use this pentatonic though.

    So anyway, pentatonics are NOT just any random 5 notes. In my mind any pentatonic you use or even try to create yourself should avoid the 4th and 7th of whatever scale you associate it to (as related to a major scale. I hope this part makes sense in some way). As usual, I'd imagine there are some exceptions to this "guideline", but that's where I am with the idea of pentatonics so far.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2017
    ba55i5t and AngelCrusher like this.
  8. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    Yep totally. The reason it's like this is because the altered scale is really just a melodic minor a half step up from the root. So you cant really think of it as a traditional scale. Additionally the note selection is pretty out so you have to learn how to hear it which takes a while.
     
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  9. I've spent zero time on melodic minor pentatonics, but I have a pretty good command of applied theory. I'm just applying what I already know to this case...

    Anyway, In this case, the note choices of the C major b6 pentatonic are based off the notes of the F melodic minor, but the tonic is actually the "C". So it's really just a "juicy" C major pentatonic. So the intervals are C D E G Ab. Hence the name, C major b6 pentatonic.
     
    ba55i5t likes this.
  10. lsabina

    lsabina

    Sep 3, 2008
    WNY
    I resemble that remark! N'yuk, n'yuk.
     
  11. Bob_Ross

    Bob_Ross Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 29, 2012
    Ah, see that's where pentatonic scales start to get interesting for me! Playing (for example) F major pentatonic over an F major chord, or C minor pentatonic over a C minor chord -- or even over a C major chord :::raises eyebrows::: -- just sounds trite, overused, and a bit remedial to my ears. It's when you start offsetting the parent scale from the root of the chord that those 5-note scales really open up some interesting sounds. John Scofield turned me on to that concept a couple of decades ago. E.g., playing Db minor pentatonic over a C dominant 7th chord...yowza!
     
    ba55i5t and AngelCrusher like this.
  12. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS

    Attached Files:

  13. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    Yes, that is the altered scale if you play all the notes. Which is actually the melodic minor a half step up and starting at the 7th. That's exactly one of the things I was trying to mention in this thread and is why players should not get in the trap of looking at shapes, but instead need to know what notes they are hitting. That way you start hearing what a b9 or #5 sounds like over an altered dominant chord and when to do it and when not to. The best way to practice your example would be to play a Gmin7 to C7 to Fmaj7 and over the first 2 chords play the Db melodic minor and then land on an A or E over the Fmaj7. It will be very easy to hear the tension and release of the notes.

    The reason you don't want to make that Db Melodic Minor a pentatonic is because you lose the leading tone of the natural 7 (B). Playing what I stated above will clearly illustrate why that 7 is a very good note to use when resolving an altered dominant back to the I. And actually is a very good supporting example of why I believe that focusing on pentatonics in the melodic minor scale first, is probably not the best approach to learning and tuning your ears up to the scale.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
  14. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    Im not sure what I just listened to because the whole piece is insanely busy. It's like the percussion is going off, the keyboard player is playing busy rhythms and the bassline is not grooving or really making too much sense to me. For me to take a bass solo on that, I'd wait until everybody took it down a notch first and foremost.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  15. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    I agree with you. Having been with TB for two plus years, I've learned that "busyness" is in the eye of the beholder.

    Thank you for your extended comment.

    That bass exercise was more for the thread about subdivision counting, not for some "grooving" song. I've just added some easy minor chords and decided not to waste it. Nothing compositional or musical. Just a theory question.

    Here is a sound clip with the drums/bass only.
    (It's my weak spot all those "percussions" - I like it but don't have any knowledge how to play it.

    https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5/?temp_hash=059f171500736f5d476e25df7c151c9f


    Here is the piano and guitar lines. My "bad" if the keyboard-ist is too busy, but...
    It's quite possible that the rhythm guitar is "overloaded".
    My "biggest" pet-peeve :banghead: with the guitar players is about guitar players being "too busy" even if I am the one that programmed that "busy" guitar line.
    (I hope our dear Mods would understand my humor/sarcasm).

    Here is the keyboard/guitar/drum clip without bass.
    https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...6/?temp_hash=059f171500736f5d476e25df7c151c9f


    P.S. Any suggestion about the "soloing" notes?
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 6, 2017
  16. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    Ok, without the bass I was able to follow a lot better. I guess that is what was cluttering it up.

    Try Eb Lydian. I liked it a lot over that progression. Just tried it and thats what I was digging.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  17. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    You see, my problem is that when I "borrowed" the main notes from Fima Ephron's serious poly...something composition, I got that F note in Bar 1 that "seriously" messes with my "easy-going" chord progression.

    FimaEx.
    In Fima's composition, there are some other chord/s degrees involved (Jazzy-stuff) - nothing close to my "perfect" Cm7 chord.
     
  18. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    Not sure what you are trying to say? You wanted to know a scale to use to solo over the progression you posted right? I soloed over it using Eb Lydian. Are you asking for compositional advice in a thread about Melodic Minor or am I misunderstanding?
     
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  19. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Here is what I mean.
    My "inside voice" says, Bar 1- it's Cm7, but when I've grabbed my JBass to check some "rhythm patterns for the guitar (to program into GP), I've noticed that instead of Cm7, the best note choice for Bar1 was G - F - Bb (Gm7).
    RhGuitar.PNG
     
  20. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    That's ok. I don't see or rather, hear an issue. All the notes work so that's all that matters. You are playing a rootless inversion basically. No rules really. I thought you were talking about soloing and note selection there.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.

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