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Melodic minor pentatonic

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by ba55i5t, May 3, 2017.


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  1. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    P.S. How that "important" note -A of Eb Lydian fits the Fm7 chord or Bb7?
     
  2. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    Dude just play the scale and try it. I figured out my approach just by playing it. Maybe that wont work for you but at least put your bass in your hands and play instead of over analyzing it. You are not locked into the scale. You can mess with it.
     
    SteveCS likes this.
  3. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Thanks. I totally agree with your "don't box/don't lock yourself into the scale" statement.

    You've mentioned Eb Lydian with two flats - Bb and Eb.

    EbLydian.PNG

    We have C Dorian with the same two flats - Bb and Eb.
    Cdorian.PNG
    If it's not a secret, you specifically said, "Eb Lydian" instead of saying "the-same-note" C Dorian Mode.
    I've been taught that with the Modes, one should emphasize the characteristic modal note as a very important note that "establishes that unique Mode feel".
    The #4 (or A in Eb Lydian) is what differentiates the Lydian mode from the Ionian mode; the #4 is
    therefore the characteristic modal note of the Lydian mode. (I still cannot get used to A with Fm7 or in Bb7).
     
  4. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    I've looked in the book "Pentatonic Scales for Jazz Improvization" by Ramon Ricker.
    Ramon Ricker uses two terms - "inside" and "outside" scale/notes while applying pentatonic scales to various types.

    RamonRicker-1.PNG RamonRicker-2.PNG
    There is a short mentioning about Minor Pentatonics where Ramon Ricker places that 6th (or the note, A in our Cm7) almost at the very top (end) of "outside".
    RamonRicker-MinorPent.PNG

    P.S. I'm sorry for my "busy" comments, "busy" postings, and all other "busy" bass/guitar/drum/etc... lines.
     
  5. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    You can play C Dorian if you want. I was trying to tie it back into what I was telling the OP on harmonization. Basically you don't have to start on the roots or play scales based on the roots. You can start elsewhere (in this case Eb) and it will sound different and probably a bit cooler, at least to me.

    The pentatonic book is great and i have it too. It's just a reference. I use my ears and determine my own sound. That's it. If you dont like the #11(A) just use it as a passing tone. Or don't play it. I like the spice it adds. Honestly I just went by my ears and then realized what i was doing once I was finished and made a note of it so I could reply to your question.

    I've asked you this before but please stop doing the patronizing apology thing. Don't be all weird. We can have a normal musical discussion without all the weird apologies and unnecessary chatter. I like talking theory but the apologies are very awkward and not needed.

    Have you sat down and played this stuff yet?
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  6. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Somehow, my first note that sounds "safe" to me (as a beginner "soloist") is Bb.
    My second note in Bar 1 is chromatic F#/Gb to G - Bb.
    For Fm7 and Bb7 my favorite note is G.

    All "safe" notes to me - Bb C Eb G and (F) - Eb major pentatonic .
    From my experience, I can easily added a few chromatic notes - B (Between Bb and C), F#/Gb (between F and G), and E (between F and Eb).
    My next candidate for sure is D, with "fast passing/chromatic" Db.
    Even though, George Russell would highly recommend Eb Lydian (as you pointed out) I'm still not convinced about that A note, maybe as bending from A to Bb.
    Let's put together my note choices.
    Bb (B) C (C#/Db) D Eb (E) F (F#/Gb) G G#/Ab (A) Bb.
    Now, it's time to pick up Bob Taylor's book, "The Art of Improvisation" that starts with the very primitively basic stuff for "seriously" beginners (like me) and concoct something within the limits of my technique.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
  7. ba55i5t

    ba55i5t

    May 24, 2006
    Getting back on to the melodic minor...I was just jamming with a backing track and I found that both the 4th and 6th were a bit too dissonant. The combination I kept coming back to was the arpeggio and the 9th ie. R 2 b3 5 7. Thanks for the suggestion to go back to the arpeggio.
     
    AngelCrusher likes this.
  8. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    For my 4/4 Cm7 | Fm7/Bb7 | Cm7 |2/4 Ab7/G7| progression, I've decided to try the C minor Pentatonic scale
    CminorPentatonic.PNG
    or (in order not to start on the tonic root note) - the Eb major pentatonic scale.
    Ebmajor pentatonic.PNG
    Plus, from my personal experience, that Blues b3rd note which "keeps-on-giving" is a good additional note to my simple major pentatonics.
    Here is a basic template of my using that Blues 3rd - Gb in my case - with Major/Minor pentatonics.
    I've used very simple rhythmic patterns and long notes, just to get my idea across.
    (Somehow, it sounded very "a la Hawaiian". Maybe, it's my secret desire to go there?)

    FimaMajorPent+Blues3rd.PNG FimaMajorPent+Blues3rd2.PNG FimaMajorPent+Blues3rd3.PNG

    And here is a soundclip from GP of the same.
    https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...9/?temp_hash=b9c328ef47dff92a4d6d2c00e55d2118
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    That is the Mode IV of the Dominant pentatonic. Cmin6= F9 in this case. An alternative to the other minor 6/9 pentatonic.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  10. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    Just sounds like it doesn't fit, but I don't think it is the note selection. The phrasing is off.

    For the notes you can use chromaticism from G to Ab to A. That is why I went with Eb lydian instead of just pentatonics.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  11. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    Next thing to do if you want to work in pentatonics is play the major shape that got people confused earlier. Say you are playing D melodic minor arpeggio over your backing track. Go down to A and play the pentatonic scale of A, B, C#,E,F. Same notes. Play it up 2 octaves starting at the 5th fret and ending at the F on the 10th fret of G. Get those notes under your fingers.

    Now play the D melodic Minor and combine in the A pentatonic (this is the first major one on the Beatto video). You now have multiple ways to approach that same D melodic minor scale.

    Once you get that all sorted out, go to his video and look at his minor shape and work that in.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  12. ba55i5t

    ba55i5t

    May 24, 2006
    Right so this one now has the 6th instead of the root. Still in the scale but yeah the 6th is a bit more dissonant since it is a tritone above the third. Now I get it. :thumbsup:...I think
     
  13. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    The natural B is a note in the D Melodic Minor scale.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  14. ba55i5t

    ba55i5t

    May 24, 2006
    Yep, that's why I said it's still in the scale but it's a tritone above the b3.
     
  15. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    Yes, and the big picture is you can use those pentatonics to learn different modes of the melodic minor. That way if you see a D7 alt you don't just slide up to Eb and play Melodic Minor. You may think of the Bb major shape to highlight that 6th or you may want to avoid it play the Eb melodic minor arpeggio. Basically it gets you out of the box of just thinking about one position for playing a scale or arpeggio.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  16. It's a lot to read, but if you want to see how I tend to approach the Melodic Minor Scale, you can check out the stuff I wrote in my personal notes. I like to re-write material I'm working on in my own words to make sure I get the concept down.

    If anyone notes any mistakes in my analysis, let me know.

    Melodic Minor page 1. Melodic Minor page 2.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  17. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    With my Guitar Pro help I'm continuing "dabbling" in that my failed enterprise - "improvisation".
    If I've figured out the notes - Eb major plus some chromatics, it's easy - just "push" the notes.
    This time, more notes to make sure that those notes fit and, also, I've tried to use more of that 4th note - F.
    Fima2-1.PNG Fima2-2.PNG Fima2-3.PNG
    Here is how it sounds from Guitar Pro.
    https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...2/?temp_hash=2b61e0fe142ec9ceacc681792b439f75
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  18. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    ^^^^

    You are on the right path there - much better ideas, imo.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  19. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS

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