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Modal tune?

Discussion in 'Music Theory [DB]' started by Aor82, Apr 20, 2017.


  1. Aor82

    Aor82

    Apr 15, 2017
    Hi All!

    I have a question about this tune by Hank Mobley. The A section with the continous Cm7 chord require a walking on C Dorian mode?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. That would be the first step . I suggest listening to the recording . As you can hear chromatic passing notes make the bass line more interesting . Actually the theme is also very walking bass like . Just experiment and find out what works and what does not . You can also try playing II-V-I progressions to make the line more fluent and make it easier to keep the form .
    Great tune , have fun !
     
  3. Yes.
     
  4. Yes.

    You could also borrow ideas from the Intro....
    F6/C = Dm7/C = C D Eb F G A Bb C
    Emphasising some of the bold notes on bars 2, 4 & 6 during SOLOS will imply the ii chord hence Intro chord pattern.

    Try writing a few interesting Walking Bass line against the melody in the A Section.
    Eg. Contrary motion (descending)
    C(8va) C Bb Bb | A A G G | etc.

    Eg. Harmony
    C Eb Bb C | D D G BbC_|_

    Eg. Or play unison.
     
  5. Tom Lane

    Tom Lane Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 28, 2011
    Torrance, CA
    All good suggestions. What did the bassist play on the Hank Mobley recording?
     
    Don Kasper likes this.
  6. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    I hear a bunch of Cminor with lots of A and some Ab (lots of Dorian and Natural Minor) in the bass, and some passing F,F#,G, that parallel the melody, along with some chromatic movement. Soloists are playing a lot of Cminor Dorian and also explore the Bnatural in the Cminor tonality, as well. (I would guess the bass does as well. See next sentence.)
    The recorded bass sound and mix is very natural, blended, and NOT the IN YO' FACE Bass-Heavy mix that became popular later on. His notes, (to my ear), have a lot of "air" around them, so to speak, (I like this). Sounds like Guts, as well. Very "1963".
    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  7. Aor82

    Aor82

    Apr 15, 2017
    Thanks! That is interesting.
    What kind of scales could I use for improvisation over this standard?
    Is it right to use only C Dorian over A and B for improvisation?
     
  8. Aor82

    Aor82

    Apr 15, 2017
    what are the chords substitutes that could be applied for A section??
     
  9. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    I think the notes in C Dorian are a great starting point - you might want to also explore hearing/playing Ab, Bnatural and F#, as expansions of that collection of notes/mode. (NOTE: I don't think in Modes, but rather, I try to hear the overall tonality as outlined by the Melody, (or melodic content of the solo), as well as the Harmonic content/chord voicing(s) that is occurring in the moment, and play lines support that aggregate tonality - in this case, the piano is playing very unambiguous voicings that I would attempt to support. i.e., - I would AVOID E natural and C#.)
    IMFO.
    Other folks around here may have different approaches and responses.
    Here is an example of a motivic technique that can be helpful in exploring a tonality or chord sound over 8 bars.
    Thanks.
    photo(301).JPG
     
  10. Aor82

    Aor82

    Apr 15, 2017
    What are the theoretical justifications of Ab, B natural and F# scales? Should they be applied over the B section?
     
  11. Aor82

    Aor82

    Apr 15, 2017
    C dorian bebop scale could also be applied?
     
  12. No no. Notes not scales. Many here find the term 'pool of notes' is more helpful.
    C D Eb F F# G Ab A Bb B C
     
    Seanto likes this.
  13. Seanto

    Seanto

    Dec 29, 2005
    RVA
    "theoretical justifications"...not a term i care for and one i would forget about when playing jazz. If you think in those terms, learning the style is going to be a lot harder for you in my opinion. "Theoretical explanation" might be a better way to think about it, but needing one for everything you play is going to make learning jazz a very tedious process.
     
    Groove Doctor likes this.
  14. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    I don't mean to sound harsh, but what NOTES are in this so-called "c dorian bebop scale"? (Sorry, I don't speak "Modes"!)
    One of my Large Pet Peeves with the "Modes" approach is that I'm constantly having to convert words & names to NOTES. It's like always having to convert Euros to Dollar$!
    My other LPP with Modes is that they describe ONLY linear/Horizontal/Melodic information - I prefer to first know & hear the Vertical/Harmonic/Chordal information AND Function, and then base my note choices using that information.
    It's a classic "Chicken/Egg Paradox".
    TMI. I know.
    Thanks.
     
  15. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    Here is what I believe is being played on the recording at the Bridge, esp. during the statements of the melody.
    (Does your chart look like this for these 8 bars?)
    I think it's most valuable to know & hear the individual chords, along with their overall relationship, function AND eventual harmonic destination(s).
    Thanks for your interest.

    photo(302).JPG
     
  16. Aor82

    Aor82

    Apr 15, 2017
    I'm hardly a jazz player. once I've tought with a teacher I had, that in order to improvise over a chord section I have to find their tonic and to apply the tonic scale over this section. for example: II-V-I I have to improvize with the "I" related scale over them. sorry if it is a bit superficial attidute. meanwhile this is my level of improvisation.
     
    GrantR likes this.
  17. Aor82

    Aor82

    Apr 15, 2017
    what scales these note are derive from? how they related to the B section?
     
  18. Aor82

    Aor82

    Apr 15, 2017
    Hi,
    Regarding this tune, in Jazz style, one should create a different walking line for each cycle of A or B section? Or is it possible to play the same walking line for each section of A or B during the piece?
    I ask it because Im not too familiar with the Jazz style.
     
  19. Carl Hillman

    Carl Hillman

    Jan 1, 2010
    If you're new to improvising, I would humbly suggest that you work within the confines of the C dorian scale, the C dorian jazz scale, the C minor blues scale, and the approach tones to those scale for a while, before throwing in a bunch of substitutions.

    Once you start substituting scales that don't include C, Eb, G, Bb, and D, you are playing outside the chord change...which can work, but only if you have a rock solid knowledge of the C dorian scale and lots of experience in learning how to resolve non-chord/scale tones.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
    Aor82 likes this.
  20. Again back to front. Theory tries to describe what sounds good but not everything fits neatly into boxes.

    Better way is to think of them a tension & release notes. The F# to G, the Ab to G, and B to C are very common examples. Some also call them leading notes.

    Great info here....
    How to Create a Walking Bass Line - dummies

    Constructing Walking Bass Lines
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
    Aor82 likes this.