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modes used in other scales besides the major

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Coward Of Reali, May 28, 2005.


  1. Coward Of Reali

    Coward Of Reali

    Oct 13, 2003
    So if I were to try and use modes on say, the major pentatonic would I base the intervals distance by the C major pentatonic like you do with the C major? Does it still make it Ionian, Dorian etc?
     
  2. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Because there are only 5 notes in a Penta scale,I don't see them as modes. I would suggest to see it as a major penta then on the relative minor use the minor mode which is a minor seventh chord and add the b5 and you have the minor blues scale. Very useful!!!
    SB
     
  3. Tash

    Tash

    Feb 13, 2005
    Bel Air Maryland
    There are modes of different scales though. Since a mode is created by playing the same pitches as a given scale starting a different note, you can build modes out of any scale.

    Harmonic and Melodic minor have some interesting modes.
     
  4. DaemonBass

    DaemonBass

    Mar 29, 2004
    Sacramento, CA
    If you play a major pentatonic scale starting on a different note than the tonic, is it actually called a mode? Or is that reserved for the modes of the diatonic major scale? If it's just starting on a different note than the tonic (of course staying within the scale we're talking about) then I think I finally understand what modes mean. Otherwise, I am ******* once again. :)
     
  5. DaemonBass

    DaemonBass

    Mar 29, 2004
    Sacramento, CA
    So you're saying that if you're playing in a major key then the chord just happens to switch to the relative minor of that key... you would automatically start playing a blues scale? I don't see how that would work but what the hell do I know lol
     
  6. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Well I'm not sure what you want to say about it. And may be the thing I wrote wasn't clear either.

    Like Tash said before you can build modes from most scales.

    But what I wanted to point out is the fact that a Major Penta for exemple is only a 5 notes scale and it is hard to conceive chords from them.
    Let say we have C MajPen. (C,D,E,G and A) as the scale:
    On mode I we have C6 or C6/9
    On mode II we have sort of a D9 sus4
    On mode III we more a C/E
    On mode IV we G6 sus 4 add9 or more like a C/g or Amin7/G
    On mode V we have Amin7

    Personnally, I might be wrong but, I would build modes more from scales that have an impact on a tonality in the harmony like the Major scale ,the minor Harmonic and minor Melodic Jazz.

    The thing I wanted to say about the Penta minor and the Blues scale is that they are very similar. On a F chord you can use F Maj Pent or the D min blues scale or the equivalent which is F Major Blues scale.

    I hope this will help clarify this.
    SB

    Go to the Modes final thread for more on Modes
     
  7. Bassist4Life

    Bassist4Life

    Dec 17, 2004
    Buffalo, NY
    If you start on any note other than C, it's going to be a mode of that scale.

    No. I'm not sure what you would call each mode; maybe "permutations". It is an interesting theory question though.

    Woah! Here we go! I did a quick search and I think I found our answer. Check this out. I knew I saw that word "permutation" before. :)

    http://www.bassically.net/lessons/scott_hubbell/lessons/8.htm

    Joe
     
  8. Coward Of Reali

    Coward Of Reali

    Oct 13, 2003
    'If you start on any note other than C, it's going to be a mode of that scale.'


    So if I go to the next root after C would I just call it Dorian or would it be Dorian in D?

    I guess I'm just confused if modes are the intervals of a scale or if there determined by the root of where you start.
     
  9. westland

    westland

    Oct 8, 2004
    Hong Kong
    In Jazz-Pop music, modes are generally the scales (analogous to the mediaeval Church Modes, which is why they are called ‘Modes’) that were reintroduced into jazz by Miles Davis and others in the 1970s and have become the basis for improvisation over chords.

    The Church Modes had evolved by about the 11th century for chants. Modes were allowed at a time when the church was trying to stamp out secular music, which was based on major-minor scales (Ionian-Aeolian mode) and pentatonic scales (blues scale without the flat 5th). The pentatonic scale is not a mode, but was popular, partly as a result of instrument tuning.

    It is worth noting that composers of chant were free to use a flatted B in modes I and II, and sometimes V and VI, thus mutating some of the modes toward the modern major or minor (folk modes: Ionian and Aeolian), which were frowned on by the church and used only for secular music - at least officially. The Ionian, in fact, was termed the "lascivious mode."
     
  10. Modes are determined by the pattern they form. Ionian mode will always follow the same pattern of whole and half steps, and the Mixolydian mode will always be the same, but with a flatted seventh. If you start on a different note in a pentatonic scale, you will get a mode of that scale, not corresponding to any of the seven modes of the major scale. It is a mode, but it's not named. Generally numbers are used in that instance (first mode, second, and so on.

    So if you did build modes from the major pentatonic, you would use its intervals, but the modes you got would not be named Ionian, Lydian, and such, since those names stand for particular patterns.
     
  11. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
    1950s.

    While the modes are used heavily in modal music, I wouldn't say they were THE basis for improvisation.

    Moved to general instruction.
     
  12. westland

    westland

    Oct 8, 2004
    Hong Kong
    1950s was BeBop, R&B, etc. ... I didn't think that was very modal

    ... not for everybody ... what I should have said is that this is pretty much what Miles and his bands did, not that it's all that there is to improvisation (sorry). In my mind, modes are just another way of envisioning polychords ... you can either have a modal scale from which you select notes, or you can select notes from the root, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, etc.
     
  13. Richard Lindsey

    Richard Lindsey

    Mar 25, 2000
    Metro NYC
    Three words: Kind of Blue.;) 1959
     
  14. Bassist4Life

    Bassist4Life

    Dec 17, 2004
    Buffalo, NY
    No. The Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian (and so on) are modal names you would ONLY use with the Major scale (the 6th mode of major is Aeolian or natural minor). The modal names for harmonic and melodic minor scales are similar, but they include alterations to the names.

    To keep it simple, just use the modal names you're talking about with Major. As for Pentatonic scales, there are PERMUTATIONS of the scale. Check out the link that I provided.

    Just curious, why are you interested in modes of the pentatonic scale? What are you aiming to do with them?
    Joe
     
  15. Coward Of Reali

    Coward Of Reali

    Oct 13, 2003
    I wasnt interested in the Pentatonic scale per se, I was just using it as an example as it was the first scale to come to mind
     
  16. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification

    Beat me to it.

    He'd been experimenting with the modal sound for years before this, as well.


    Great info here.
     
  17. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification

    Well, Miles' band in the 'modal' period used this. But your explanation is a bit off. The key to the "Modal Sound" is that the modes are used almost exclusively - very little, if any, chromatisism is used. This opposed to bebop, where chord tones and chromatics provide the basis to the sound.
     
  18. westland

    westland

    Oct 8, 2004
    Hong Kong
    OK ... I cede ... 50's/60's rather than 70's.

    I really don't want to go down an unproductively picky path. And, sure, you can make the points about improvisational styles, but the original question was on modes where I contributed some history. Unless I am misinformed, the ... uh ... 50's ... modes were called modes, because of the analogy with church modes, and I believe it was the Berklee school faculty that helped popularize some more traditional terms from music theory when describing jazz (even if they didn't originate the terminology).

    Help me out here
     
  19. RiddimKing

    RiddimKing

    Dec 29, 2004
    "Just curious, why are you interested in modes of the pentatonic scale? What are you aiming to do with them?
    Joe"

    Exactly! What do you want to accomplish? Soloing over chords? Developing grooves or fills? As Carol Kaye emphasizes (many thanks to the TB member who posted that link--what a great resource!), music is about chords. The modes are great cause practicing them really drills the patterns of scales on the fretboard, but you have to understand chordal structure to really make music.
     
  20. Richard Lindsey

    Richard Lindsey

    Mar 25, 2000
    Metro NYC
    Actually, I think this is highly questionable. There's a lot of music out there that's much more about melody than it is about chords (Indian ragas, for example), and a lot of music that's more about rhythm than either (West African drumming, for example).