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More Modes!

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by 6-stringjazz, Jun 3, 2001.


  1. 6-stringjazz

    6-stringjazz

    Jun 1, 2001
    Abq NM
    Hey I'm trying to memorize the modes under the jazz minor and augmented scales, and the best way to figure them out and learn them is by putting them into use in a song's chord chart - well, for me anyways. Can anybody give me the names of a few songs where I can directly use these modes and scales? I would be greatly appreciative. Thanks!!!
     
  2. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    Before anyone can answer this question, you need to define the terms, "Jazz Minor" and "Augmented" as you see them relating to scales. Jazz players play many different minor scales. Which one is used at any given time usually depends on the context. Some of the common minor scales used in jazz are : Dorian, Aeolian, Melodic, Harmonic, and Phrygian. There is no such thing as one all-encompassing "Jazz Minor" scale.

    The same can be said for Augmented scales - it depends on what is being "Augmented". The term usually refers to a raised fifth, but any perfect interval that gets raised is commonly called "augmented".
     
  3. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
    Chis,

    I believe he's talking about Jazz melodic minor, which I've heard referred to as Jazz minor. As far as augmented scale, I can only guess he's talking about whole tone (?) as it's used over augmented chords. If it is indeed whole tone, there are no modes to it, it's a symetrical scale.
     
  4. 6-stringjazz

    6-stringjazz

    Jun 1, 2001
    Abq NM
    Yeah, sorry I didn't specify the scales I was talking about, but thanks for replying.By jazz minor I'm talking about melodic minor, only the third is flat. and by augmented I am only sharping the fifth. I have the modes for these on a chart but I need some way to use them Please Help!! thanks a lot Pac Man and Chris Fitzgerald!!
     
  5. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
    Ok, here's what I come up with. First of all, if you're learning scales and then somewhere to use them, you might be going about it backwards. Better to learn chords, and then what scales can go with them, so you understand the sounds of the scales against the chords.

    the scale you call augmented, as near as I can figure it, is the 3rd mode of harmonic minor. I can't see too many uses for this scale. Unless there's a chord written as C+ (maj7) I'd just use a whole tone, to start.

    as far as the modes of melodic minor go:

    Melodic minor: used over min/maj7
    1-2-b3-4-5-6-7-1

    Minor 7 b2: use over a Dom7 (b9 #9) or over minor 7 as a tension
    1-b2-b3-4-5-6-b7-1

    Lydian Augmented: over 7b13 chords or major7 for tension
    1-2-3-#4-b6-6-7-1 or, more correctly:
    1-2-3-#11-b13-6-7-1

    Lydian Dominant : use over 7#11 chords or or V7 chords
    1-2-3-#4(#11)-5-6-b7-1

    Hindu: over 7b13 chords
    1-2-3-4-5-b6-b7-1

    (not sure of the name of this - We'll call it Locrian II): use over minb5 chords
    1-2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7-1

    Dim whole tone / Altered / Super Locrian:
    use over V7#9 - especially when resolving to a minor 7 chord
    1-b2-b3-3-#4-b6-b7-1 again, more correctly:
    1-b9-#9-3-#11-b13-b7-1

    The important thing about using these scales, IME, is they are sounds you can draw from. But if you just learn them and play them over the chords without learning to resolve them, you'll just be bullsh*ting.

    Good luck, there's a lot of stuff here.
     
  6. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    What he said, and all of it. To which I would add a couple of things: Lydian Dominant and Diminished whole-tone are modes of each other a tritone apart, which accounts for the same tonality being available during tritone substitutions.

    Also, the term "jazz minor" is extremely misleading because many (some would even argue most) melodies of minor-key standards contain flatted 6ths and 7ths of the key, which makes the raised 6th and 7th in the "Jazz Minor" scale coloristic choices rather than organic ones. The best method I've come across for really understanding what scale to use for any TONIC function minor chord is a scale which I would be more likely to call "jazz minor":

    1-2-b3-4-5-(b6-6-b7-7)-8, with the scale tones in parentheses representing choices that you make depending on the context of what you are hearing, what the Chord Player (guitar, piano, etc.) is doing at that moment, where your line is coming from, where it's going, etc.. If you think of TONIC MINOR in this way, you will have all the sounds of Dorian, Aeolian, Harmonic, and Melodic minor available to you all the time - you just have to choose which 6th and which 7th sounds best to you AT THAT MOMENT. Try it, it's big fun.

    Good luck.
     
  7. 6-stringjazz

    6-stringjazz

    Jun 1, 2001
    Abq NM
    When I say augmented I mean 1-2-3-4-#5-6-7
    There are some instances where it is used for example, say we are in Bb. If the music says play over an A-7b5, I will associate that as locrian of Bb major. If the next chord is a D7b9 I will play over that chord as I would the Bb aug scale since the third mode of that scale would be 7 b9 b13. Therefore I would stay in the same key just changing the scale. Am I correct in thinking this way or am I on the edge of a cliff. And go easy on me I'm only 15.
     
  8. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
    Not really. In the above example you're not really in the key of Bb, you're in G minor. The A-7b5 is the ii chord of Gm and the D7b9 is the V. The really important notes here and the F# (3rd) the C (7th) and the Eb (b9). While the Bb augmented scale (as you describe it) will work, it's an awfully long way to get to where you want to go. Try the Altered scale, it's got all the tensions in it and it sounds great resolving to the Gm (which is where your chord prog is going).
     
  9. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    The big problem with teaching the minor ii-V-i progression to beginners in my experience is to find a way to communicate the idea that the whole progression is basically one big tonality rather than three separate scales that are played in order (one scale per chord). While you CAN play it that way (like Ed sez, if you are hearing the sound, you can make anything work), you have to be a lot more aware of resolutions for each chord scale coming at it from that direction, and for beginners that may be putting the cart before the horse.

    The problem I notice most beginners having with the Dim/Whole Tone scale in this instance (D7b9 or D7#9 or whatever you are calling it - the scale goes D-Eb-F-F#-G#-A#/Bb-C-D) is the G#. Most of the people I see at the camps have no idea how to handle this note in the overall context of ii-V-i in G minor, and every time they try to use it, it sticks out like a sore thumb. An approach to a more "organic" minor sound that I like to use to get people started is to spell out the voicing for each chord, and then add those notes together to form a scale.

    A-7b5:......... A-C-Eb-G

    D7#9#5: (D)-F#-A#/Bb-C-F

    G-7 (9):...(G)-Bb-D-F-A

    When you put it all together, you end up with the following:
    G-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-F-F#-G

    This scale can be very useful for beginners trying to find something that works over the entire ii-V-i tonality until they learn to hear all of the possible twists and turns that lines can take through the progression.

    Hope that made some sense.
     
  10. 6-stringjazz

    6-stringjazz

    Jun 1, 2001
    Abq NM
    That was awesome Chris Thank You!!
     
  11. Angus

    Angus Supporting Member

    Apr 16, 2000
    Palo Alto, CA
    Isn't that just Aeolian (b5)? I believe that's what I've seen it referred to as.
     
  12. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    In the UK we call this Super Locrian or Locrian number II - the crucial note is the flat 9 (or 2) which would be an avoid note with normal Locrian, but in this scale you use the normal 9.