Most iconic hard rock/metal amp & speaker?

[hennessybass]

Regarding the 1200 watt IcePower module, I come from the pro audio industry where higher power is more common. I have designed 1200+ watt amps in the past (including one for the bass guitar touring market) and discovered that players would use the higher power as an excuse for not having enough cabinet and then damaging speakers. That was 10 years ago, do you guys think that the sophistication of the market has changed?

A bit like saying if you design a car with a big engine, someone is gonna drive to fast and wreck the car.
Most likely, ya. But some dudes know how to drive and enjoy the feel of all that power under the hood.

Someone is always gonna blow their stuff up. That's not on you.

My impression is that when guys want that kind of power, they are chasing feel, not volume.

Of course there will always be someone who puts that 1200 into a 112 and expects it to produce some magic result in terms of volume...

 

[Mark Andrew]

A bit like saying if you design a car with a big engine, someone is gonna drive to fast and wreck the car.
Most likely, ya. But some dudes know how to drive and enjoy the feel of all that power under the hood.

Someone is always gonna blow their stuff up. That's not on you.

My impression is that when guys want that kind of power, they are chasing feel, not volume.

Of course there will always be someone who puts that 1200 into a 112 and expects it to produce some magic result in terms of volume...

The discussion is moving from what was iconic to what could potentially fill the SVTs shoes in the future. I think allot of us that have all valve heads would probably use them allot more if not for the weight. So we often grab the class d that lets face it sound great nowadays. On that note I don't understand why lighter weight switching power supply valve amps like the vb3 didn't seem to take off? For me the next iconic bass amp would fill the shoes of the SVT in a lighter package and have a removable class d amp incorporated in the front panel a bit like a car radio pullout. Maybe that's a totally unachievable/too gimmicky/ stupidly expensive idea but hey one can dream.......

 

[Coolhandjjl]

I think @tombowlus from Bass Gear Magazine may be of help here.

 

[JimmyM]

The discussion is moving from what was iconic to what could potentially fill the SVTs shoes in the future. I think allot of us that have all valve heads would probably use them allot more if not for the weight. So we often grab the class d that lets face it sound great nowadays. On that note I don't understand why lighter weight switching power supply valve amps like the vb3 didn't seem to take off? For me the next iconic bass amp would fill the shoes of the SVT in a lighter package and have a removable class d amp incorporated in the front panel a bit like a car radio pullout. Maybe that's a totally unachievable/too gimmicky/ stupidly expensive idea but hey one can dream.......

I've played through a VB3 before. Nice amp...perfectly usable...just didn't hit me like an SVT. I imagine if sales of the SVT got affected by its heavy weight any more than it has, they would consider it, but they still sell a butt-ton of them every year, so Ampeg probably just doesn't feel the need. Yet

 

[swarfrat]

The discussion is moving from what was iconic to what could potentially fill the SVTs shoes in the future.

Is anyone shocked? Probably a good reason for that.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

..and have a removable class d amp incorporated in the front panel a bit like a car radio pullout. Maybe that's a totally unachievable/too gimmicky/ stupidly expensive idea but hey one can dream.......

 

[_Some Dude]

I've played through a VB3 before. Nice amp...perfectly usable...just didn't hit me like an SVT. I imagine if sales of the SVT got affected by its heavy weight any more than it has, they would consider it, but they still sell a butt-ton of them every year, so Ampeg probably just doesn't feel the need. Yet

The people who want it lighter would still complain it's too heavy and the purists would complain it doesn't sound the same.

Ampeg could create a press release showing it's the exact same amp in a different headshell and the tinfoil hat crowd wouldn't believe them. Someone would post a picture of a wire that's a slightly different shade of white taken in totally different lighting as proof of the conspiracy. Sales would plummet and boutique amp makers would start producing 80 pound anvils for $1000 more.

 

[_Some Dude]

Interesting responses.

Bogey, wasn't the Stone one of Bob & Bobby Corona's clubs (along with the Keystone)?

There seem to be a lot of (somewhat) iconic brands that are now long gone, any thoughts as to why?

What has been iconic in say the past 10 years?

Having had some time to think about this...

I think a lot of brands dropped off once the PA became better at being a bass amp/cab than the bass amps/cabs were. The ones that survived were the ones that had a tone/response that people found desirable and the PA couldn't provide.

The amps that emerged trended towards being more Hi-Fi. Getting more PA like and replicating the sound of a DI or a nice console, which makes sense as I understand that most studio recordings are DI rather than mic'd amps, so that's the sound many of us are subliminally chasing in our heads.

As I understand it, there's generally three schools of thought on metal bass. The first is to use a clean, Hi-Fi tone that will punch/cut through heavy/distorted guitars and provide a solid foundation, attack, and a sense of dynamics to the band. The more distorted the guitar the cleaner the bass needs to be.

The second is for the bass to use dirt and generate harmonics so that it supports and merges with the guitars, or (depending on the band) moves the bass to the forefront of the mix so it can stand out in its own.

The third school of thought is to blend both those two ideas. Ben Shepherd used an SVT and M6 Carbine for clean/dirty, then goosed the SVT with a V Twin for more dirt when he wanted to step out more. Robert Trujillo ran an SVT4 and a Dual Rectifier. Justin Chancellor uses a Rat into a GK 2001RB/Mesa PH412 for dirt and a GK 2001RB/Mesa PH810 for cleans. Nolly I think mostly used a mix of DAW, AxeFX and Darkglass to achieve his signature top end attack and ping, which in turns translates well out the DI and allows the band to use Ableton Live to sequence their changes.

IMO, it's this third area where most of the most exciting stuff is happening, and between the D800/+ and WD800 you have the first two well covered.

Sorry if this is stuff you already know. Kind of bugged me that there was a lot of talk about the gear without a whole lot of talk about how the gear is actually used. Maybe others can correct/expand upon what I wrote...

 

[Wood and Wire]

There have always been close parallels between dance music, and heavy metal, one in particular is the exponential rate at which new sub-genres have appeared (and disappeared) since the mid-80's.

It only takes an accent on one 16th note of a hi-hat, vs the accent being on a different 16th, in an otherwise identical beat, and dance music aficionados will passionately hail (either love or loathe) it an entirely new genre.

Likewise, with heavy metal, seemingly insignificant details (from the specific delay pedal used, gauge of strings / plectrum, colour of wallpaper in the studio reception area), folks will get passionate, and extremely heated over a sub-genre of a sub-sub-genre...

I would expect that to extend to bass amps too, so it's probably impossible to determine what is currently iconic : ie an essential component of "Metal" today.


But in terms of "iconic" in the sense of touring rigs used by iconic heavy metals bassists :

Steve Harris - Trace Elliot

Lemmy - Marshall

Cliff Burton - Mesa Boogie

Jason Newsted - Ampeg

Tom Araya - Marshall

Justin Chancellor - GK + Mesa


Throughout the 90's, I generally saw a lot more Solid State bass amps, than tube amps (mostly Trace Elliot, and GK - though also some SWR, and Hartke).

The majority seemed to favour a clear, articulate sound, from a SS amp, rather than a driven, compressed sound, from a tube amp - when trying to compete with 2 or 3 insanely loud guitarists, and a loud as hell drummer swamping the low frequencies with double kick barrages.

Other than the occasional Brit using a Marshall bass amp, it was almost entirely American bassists that would use tube amps - but even then, I'd guesstimate it was probably well under 25% that were using tube amps.

In the non-professional leagues, it was whatever was available at a good price - mostly Peavey, Carlsbro, Custom Sound, Laney, and the odd Marshall, Orange, or Fender.

 

[3rdcurve]

A bit like saying if you design a car with a big engine, someone is gonna drive to fast and wreck the car.
Most likely, ya. But some dudes know how to drive and enjoy the feel of all that power under the hood.

Someone is always gonna blow their stuff up. That's not on you.

My impression is that when guys want that kind of power, they are chasing feel, not volume.

Of course there will always be someone who puts that 1200 into a 112 and expects it to produce some magic result in terms of volume...

+100

That's why I wedged a big block into a mopar a-body. I don't wind it up to redline all the time. It's the endless tourqe nearly off idle that makes it a blast to drive. That said, ideally I would want the 1200 watts available at 2.67 ohms to be able to run a triple stack whether they be 2x10s, 12s, 15s, or any combo of those. To me...that is scalable to any venue. The dual 800 units would likely be nice too, but a single 1200 should be smaller/cheaper/lighter and plenty.

 

[agedhorse]

Having had some time to think about this...

I think a lot of brands dropped off once the PA became better at being a bass amp/cab than the bass amps/cabs were. The ones that survived were the ones that had a tone/response that people found desirable and the PA couldn't provide.

The amps that emerged trended towards being more Hi-Fi. Getting more PA like and replicating the sound of a DI or a nice console, which makes sense as I understand that most studio recordings are DI rather than mic'd amps, so that's the sound many of us are subliminally chasing in our heads.

As I understand it, there's generally three schools of thought on metal bass. The first is to use a clean, Hi-Fi tone that will punch/cut through heavy/distorted guitars and provide a solid foundation, attack, and a sense of dynamics to the band. The more distorted the guitar the cleaner the bass needs to be.

The second is for the bass to use dirt and generate harmonics so that it supports and merges with the guitars, or (depending on the band) moves the bass to the forefront of the mix so it can stand out in its own.

The third school of thought is to blend both those two ideas. Ben Shepherd used an SVT and M6 Carbine for clean/dirty, then goosed the SVT with a V Twin for more dirt when he wanted to step out more. Robert Trujillo ran an SVT4 and a Dual Rectifier. Justin Chancellor uses a Rat into a GK 2001RB/Mesa PH412 for dirt and a GK 2001RB/Mesa PH810 for cleans. Nolly I think mostly used a mix of DAW, AxeFX and Darkglass to achieve his signature top end attack and ping, which in turns translates well out the DI and allows the band to use Ableton Live to sequence their changes.

IMO, it's this third area where most of the most exciting stuff is happening, and between the D800/+ and WD800 you have the first two well covered.

Sorry if this is stuff you already know. Kind of bugged me that there was a lot of talk about the gear without a whole lot of talk about how the gear is actually used. Maybe others can correct/expand upon what I wrote...

Thanks.

 

[beans-on-toast]

There isn't one shoe that fits every foot. You'll have to be more specific as to the type of metal.

Heavy metal genres - Wikipedia

The era also figures in. Some amps come and go, in and out of favor based on the current trend.

For rock of any era, put me down for an early 70's SVT or V4B with an 810. The current Ampeg Heritage SVT-810E, not the regular one, has Eminence speakers that sonically match those in the early 810 flatback cabs but have a higher power handling capacity. I used one with a 400+, wow, did that amp ever sing! In the 80's metal players liked the Mesa high end grind with cabinets stacked.

Of course, what was used in the studio may not match what was used live. Complicating things even more.

 

[NKBassman]

I WANT THAT!

 

[jnsnj]

There have always been close parallels between dance music, and heavy metal, one in particular is the exponential rate at which new sub-genres have appeared (and disappeared) since the mid-80's.

It only takes an accent on one 16th note of a hi-hat, vs the accent being on a different 16th, in an otherwise identical beat, and dance music aficionados will passionately hail (either love or loathe) it an entirely new genre.

Likewise, with heavy metal, seemingly insignificant details (from the specific delay pedal used, gauge of strings / plectrum, colour of wallpaper in the studio reception area), folks will get passionate, and extremely heated over a sub-genre of a sub-sub-genre...

I would expect that to extend to bass amps too, so it's probably impossible to determine what is currently iconic : ie an essential component of "Metal" today.


But in terms of "iconic" in the sense of touring rigs used by iconic heavy metals bassists :

Steve Harris - Trace Elliot

Lemmy - Marshall

Cliff Burton - Mesa Boogie

Jason Newsted - Ampeg

Tom Araya - Marshall

Justin Chancellor - GK + Mesa


Throughout the 90's, I generally saw a lot more Solid State bass amps, than tube amps (mostly Trace Elliot, and GK - though also some SWR, and Hartke).

The majority seemed to favour a clear, articulate sound, from a SS amp, rather than a driven, compressed sound, from a tube amp - when trying to compete with 2 or 3 insanely loud guitarists, and a loud as hell drummer swamping the low frequencies with double kick barrages.

Other than the occasional Brit using a Marshall bass amp, it was almost entirely American bassists that would use tube amps - but even then, I'd guesstimate it was probably well under 25% that were using tube amps.

In the non-professional leagues, it was whatever was available at a good price - mostly Peavey, Carlsbro, Custom Sound, Laney, and the odd Marshall, Orange, or Fender.

Those 90s trace elliot's where the first amp I ever gas'ed for. Never got one. I might have to save up some cash and start looking.

 

[Thumpr]

Those 90s trace elliot's where the first amp I ever gas'ed for. Never got one. I might have to save up some cash and start looking.

Classic head.
My AH600 GP7SM (7 band eq, black light, great DI, 60something pounds IIRC) was (is) just a monster.

Biamped (it was popular then) into a trace 410h and two bag end s15b-d's (8 ohm cabs) it was the loudest, fat face ripping 600 watts I've run through. We played loud back then, it held its own against a tri-rec stack and a VHT pitbull stack. I ran Stingray 5's - fresh ss roundwounds (religiously) straight into the head, no effects chain. My drummer has mine held hostage at his recording studio in Pasadena, still uses it tracking regularly.

Edit- the uber-cool find would be the rigs Tony Levin used to roll, racked up trace preamp and trace tube poweramps that I used to covet desperately. Wonder how many surviving copies there are out there. Somebody has to have one.

 

[ThisBass]

That certainly buys a LOT more power into both 4 and 2 ohms. That's exactly what we did with the ShuttleMax 12.0/12.0, and a lot of them went out to power a pair of 4 ohm cabinets. With the existing 800 watt amps, you would then have 800 watts per 4 ohm load... perfect for a pair of 410's, 212's or 215's.

Thoughts???

Yes Sir.
I feel some kind of "malaise" if I think about an 800 watt amplifier and a 212 cab used by an unexperienced youngster.
I'd implement a software to the amplifier that aks for the birth of date before the amplifier powers on and, according to the age of the player "reduce" the power a little bit accordingly to the (by default) expected experience of the player.
If the cab was blown by stupid "abuse" it was then possible to read the log file for warranty disputes.

Of course I'm just joking a little bit but, I think that experienced players may (sometimes) ask for more of power because of improved headroom rather than loudness reasons (and expectations)

 

[Wood and Wire]

I'd implement a software to the amplifier that aks for the birth of date before the amplifier powers on and, according to the age of the player "reduce" the power a little bit accordingly to the (by default) expected experience of the player.
If the cab was blown by stupid "abuse" it was then possible to read the log file for warranty disputes.

Every time the amp boots up, you have to fill in a brief questionnaire, assessing the users ability to debunk myths about under-powering cabs, their reasons for mixing drivers, and whether or not they're using the right rig for Metal.




I actually wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing smart amps & cabs, that talk to each other, and throttle power / LF energy (dynamic HP filtering) accordingly.

 

[donahue]

I think if Mesa melded some things they have already developed and put an exciting twist on it, they'd be good to go. You have all the ingredients in the cupboard, just need to mix them up in a new way.

Personally, I would take a good hard look at the M6/9 and go from there. Those amps weren't mentioned much in this thread, to my surprise, but until you play metal through one, you don't know that they blow everything else away. You can't even comment to it until you've tried it. And I've tried playing metal through about everything. I finally own an M9 and it's truly jaw-dropping.

 

[Riff Ranger]

I think if Mesa melded some things they have already developed and put an exciting twist on it, they'd be good to go. You have all the ingredients in the cupboard, just need to mix them up in a new way.

Personally, I would take a good hard look at the M6/9 and go from there. Those amps weren't mentioned much in this thread, to my surprise, but until you play metal through one, you don't know that they blow everything else away. You can't even comment to it until you've tried it. And I've tried playing metal through about everything. I finally own an M9 and it's truly jaw-dropping.

I'm looking at a Carbine to complement my Buster combo, which needs attention from a far-away tech. Good to hear. How would you tweak the Carbine to make it the amp we would mention, i.e. bump it up into iconic territory? I think it has the ingredients I'm after, though I do like to drive a tube power section (I use a Night Owl Industries Oscar tube preamp in the effects loop of my Buster for that purpose).

 

[donahue]

Honestly I don't know why it wasn't mentioned more. If I had to take a guess, I'd say price was a factor?