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Need a decent pair of 10's...and a few other questions

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Le Basseur, Jan 24, 2005.


  1. Le Basseur

    Le Basseur

    Mar 26, 2002
    Croatia
    Hi gang, :)
    I need your suggestions about purchasing a pair of 10's for a future cab to be complemented with my existing 1x15'.
    The problem is these 10's must have 4 Ohms each because I need a 8 Ohms box in that position (I intend to run it in parallel with the 1x15' so I have to be in the 4 Ohms amp's ballpark).
    Unfortunately,there's a very small number of decent 10's/4 Ohms on the market (except the automotive lines :scowl: ) so I'm open to your suggestions.
    Thanks!
    PS
    What's up with the drivers (BUGERA) Behringer puts in their newer series?Do these drivers have anything to do with Jensen?Are they available separately?Did someone used them in a DIY project?Is there a web link with the parameters?
    Argh...too many questions at once.... :rolleyes:
     
  2. andruca

    andruca

    Mar 31, 2004
    Madrid (Spain)
    The "infamous" Bugera speakers seem total dogsh*t to me (although I like Behringer products), they just invented an "infamous" brand that no one knows and that only appears on Behringer cabs if you "google" it a little. If they had anything to do with Jensen, Behringer would never miss to include such fact on ads/webpage. Regarding 10"s, look at these...

    http://editweb.iglou.com/eminence/eminence/pages/products02/speakpro/kap10.htm

    Although the page says 8ohms, they come in both 8 and 4 ohms (proof is Avatar B410PRO cabs come in 8 or 4 ohms). You can get a couple of them in 4ohms from Dave @ www.avatarspeakers.com. With 2 of these you can handle 1000WRMS (i think this is the coild fry point, the mechanical limit of the speaker may be lower, but still good enough to laugh at any 10" speaker for bass). Good luck!

    ANDRUCA
     
  3. Le Basseur

    Le Basseur

    Mar 26, 2002
    Croatia
    ....anyone else?
    Regards,
     
  4. bigbeefdog

    bigbeefdog Who let the dogs in?

    Jul 7, 2003
    Mandeville, LA
    Slow down a sec, LB..... there's another way, perhaps an easier way.....

    How is that 2x10 to be wired? Most of those I've encountered use 16-ohm drivers wired in parallel, for a cab impedance of 16X16 / 16+16, or 8 ohms.....

    And many good quality drivers, including most Eminence, are available in 16-ohm versions....
     
  5. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Even better, do it the right way with a high-pass filter and use only one ten. There's no point in running two tens full range along with the 15, since fully half the low frequency power that the 15 can reproduce will then end up being wasted as heat by tens that can't work down low anyway. Use an Eminence Delta 10; while marginal at best for full range use, it's very good above 150 Hz or so, and one will be sufficient. Put it in a sealed cabinet of .5 cu ft (net exclusive of driver) and filter it with a 100 mfd capacitor (Parts Express #027-447).
     
  6. Le Basseur

    Le Basseur

    Mar 26, 2002
    Croatia
    I need them in series,so it has to be 4 Ohms drivers.
    Don't worry,I made my math prior my initial post,otherwise I wouldn't bother you with such a simple question! ;)
    Like I said,I made my math...but I just want your oppinion regarding different brands...Eminence drivers are excellent but they're not exactly what I'm looking for as a sound.
    Thank you for replying!
    Regards,
     
  7. Le Basseur

    Le Basseur

    Mar 26, 2002
    Croatia
    Hi Bill,
    Thanks for dropping in!
    Well,filtering with a 1st order the 10' isn't either a desirable option.On the 15' box I have already I have a horn tweeter (a P-Audio,just like in the original Epi T115) wich runs through a 3rd order filter at around 2,4 KHz,if I recall correctly.The 15' driver runs directly and I choose this kind of tweeter filtration for phase reasons (and after I saw that Epifani does exactly the same thing,wich makes sense).
    Therefore,running an additional 10' through a 1st order filter in this stack would introduce some phase response problems,don't you think?
    ...or am I mising something here? :bag:
    Not even with some appropriate drivers mounted in a carefully designed cab?
    As I said,I'd avoid the use of a 10' (or a pair of them) as a "third way" or "filtered mids" in my stack.
    Please go on with your comments,I'd really like a constructive dialog on this theme!
    Regards,
     
  8. Eric Moesle

    Eric Moesle Supporting Member

    Sep 21, 2001
    Columbus OH
    I don't understand how there can be a "need" for two 4 ohm speakers in series to get 8 ohms as opposed to using two 16 ohm speakers parallel. What could possible create the "need" to do it that way, if the result is the same either way? Enlighten me, please.

    Most drivers of different brand names are all made by Eminence. Considering that every Eminence model has its own unique "sound", what is it about their "sound" that precludes you from considering them? Again, enlighten me, please.
     
  9. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Ideally you'd want to run a full blown crossover, but that would be a fairly complicated scenario, which is why I suggested just a simple 1st order high pass filter on the ten. That way you can simply plug it in and it will fill in the midbass/midrange that the 15 can't deliver. As long as the 10 and 15 are vertically aligned you won't have comb filtering issues, and the 1st order filter on the ten won't pose phase problems with the 3rd order filter on the tweeter.

    A better alternative would be to install an Alpha 8 MR in the same box as the 15/horn, crossed over at 800 Hz third order HP, 1st order LP on the 15, but that's only if the 15 box has room for it.
     
  10. Le Basseur

    Le Basseur

    Mar 26, 2002
    Croatia
    Maybe I'm wrong...in this case,someone should correct me,but when I ran on more than,say,60~80 Watts a pair of identical 16 Ohms paralleled drivers I got invariable the same "cone breakup" effect.It doesn't mean that those drivers were lead to the edge,but the effect was there and I'd rather keep my rig as clean as possible.
    On the other hand,the power distribution looked different when I ran two 4 Ohms in series...no breakup effect,this time,just clean power.
    The four drivers (the 4 Ohms pair and the 16 Ohms pair) were the same type and same manufacturer so any other things being equal...am I wrong about this?!? :confused: I'm not sure at all this is explainable physically,but I know what I heard! :meh:
    I'd like to avoid the sound as produced by upper side of a Warwick Terminator,or a Warwick 410 Pro.Those 10' Warwick puts in their cabs simply don't fit my taste.
    On the other hand,I'm aware about the Eminence's diversity...it happens to like a lot the "voicing" of a 12' Kappa I have. :)
     
  11. Le Basseur

    Le Basseur

    Mar 26, 2002
    Croatia
    The box doesn't have enough place for a 3rd driver,that's why I choose to build a top for it.
    Thank you for the details!:)
     
  12. andruca

    andruca

    Mar 31, 2004
    Madrid (Spain)
    I don't think the 10s in the terminator are Kappas. They say "custom" in their site (which says nothing) but I think they're Legend BP102s or Deltas. Kappas are top of the top!

    ANDRUCA
     
  13. bigbeefdog

    bigbeefdog Who let the dogs in?

    Jul 7, 2003
    Mandeville, LA
    OK, you have a preference for 4-ohm... not a problem (you didn't say that before! ;) )

    But the question you probably need to ask yourself is, even if the theory is correct, does it force me to "settle" for one of the few drivers that come in 4-ohm versions, or would I be better off using parallel wiring to get the drivers I *really* like in 16-ohm?

    I've never heard a theoretical basis for preferring series over parallel, so I won't comment....
     
  14. Le Basseur

    Le Basseur

    Mar 26, 2002
    Croatia
  15. Le Basseur

    Le Basseur

    Mar 26, 2002
    Croatia
    In the meantime,I found something on another forum.A guy had a similar problem so here's the essence of that discussion.
    Just read on so you'll can comment later! :D

    In both your speaker scenarios, each (identical) speaker will receive the same amount of power.

    "...use parallel speaker wiring for your 2-10 cab. Why? Because your SS power amp's output impedance will affect both 10" drivers to the greatest extent possible, maximizing damping factor. With series wiring, each driver 'sees' another driver in series with the PA output, giving you a max effective damping factor of <1 for the 2-10 cab.

    Another factor I consider for high-power use is voice coil wire diameter. In two otherwise-identical speakers, the 8 ohm one will have larger-diameter wire than the 16 ohm one. FWIW, I've seen quite a few blown 16-ohm and 32-ohm (SVT) voice coils myself - the 32-ohm cones especially have hair-thin wire - and I see very few old SVT cabs on eBay with all-original cones. This won't affect your situation as you having an existing 8-ohm cab that you probably want to put as much power as possible into, but if I were starting from scratch and my power amp could drive a 2-ohm load, I would probably go with four 8-ohm drivers for this reason. YMMV."

    "...the 10's should be rated to handle at least the power they'll expect to see in this application (125W each, 250W total). If the 10's had a 16 ohm total impedance or you used a 4 ohm 15" driver, then the 15 would take the 'lion's share' (66%) of the power, and the 10" drivers' power rating could be lowered if necessary.

    As an example; I've got a 4-12 cab with two 16-ohm 25W Celestion Greenbacks, and two 16-ohm 250W Eminence Betas, wired series/parallel for 16 ohms total impedance. What's the power rating of this speaker cabinet (which I define as "the power above which something might blow")? 100 watts; i.e., the input power level where the lowest-power speakers each see their full power rating."

    "...Two different speakers in parallel will sound flatter and help quench each-other's resonant peaks for tighter, more controlled sound. If you're going to be using the cab in parallel with an 8 ohm 1x15", you'll get that effect in spades. In series, the peaks tend to add up rather than cancel out, making for peakier response (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). "

    "...about parallel wiring, - more punch, less slop and boomy 'drone-note' bass. It's almost like the series-connected speakers act as weird 'excited crossover inductors' to each other, and I bet there's plenty of phase shift between them as well. Apart from frequency response, I need my speakers to reproduce what I put into them."

    Hope it's a good lecture for you as it was for me!
    Regards,
     
  16. andruca

    andruca

    Mar 31, 2004
    Madrid (Spain)
    But that has no logic at all, I mean, Warwick says the Terminator's upper part (2x10" + horn) stands 400W RMS. With two of these you can only have 100W RMS. Does the upper part of the Terminator get blown that often?

    ANDRUCA
     
  17. Le Basseur

    Le Basseur

    Mar 26, 2002
    Croatia
    As you already know (I hope),most of the brand's specs are BS.This applies also to Warwick (remember those "ol'good Warwick basses"?Well,that time is gone by now and the brand is stuck on making BIG money by poorer quality and pompous ads and specs.Everybody does,isn't so,so why not a brand we once worshipped?).
    Their claim that Terminator's upper part goes up to 400W RMS means two things:
    1.The measurements (up to the claimed power) were made most probably on 1 KHz ONLY.This is a very common (intentional) misuse of a measuring process and most commercial brands use it sucessfully.The customer buys such a 400W RMS cab and the money is gone forever because the drivers are gonna blow instantly and the warranty doesn't cover "the misuse" of a product.
    Solution:check carefully the brand when you buy something (either drivers or a finished cab).Ask insistently for details and REAL specs of a given driver.If what's you hear is criss-crossing with the most elementary (technical) common sense,drop it and look for something else.
    2.The two "customs" are intended to work mainly (but not necessarily) with the Warwick's biamp head ProTube IX.This being said,the two 10's run on a crossover'd output stage wich has a certain lo-cut filter.In this manner,the two 10's can stand a bigger-than-normal power becuse they'll "sing" only above 120 Hz or so.And,of course,because of the crossover'd channel,the 10' don't blow at all....they only fart! :p
    In the last year I had three ProTube IX's on repair (...I wouldn't detail about that... :rollno: :eyebrow: ) and two Terminators.
    The complains were that the cabs sounded "weird" and I had to change ALL the internal wiring (flimsy wires!!! :rolleyes: ) with something more appropriate and,hang on,to manage the poor cab's wall joining (the cabs were "leaking").In particular,one of those cabs was rattling heavily and I had to reinforce internally all the joints.
    I was struck by the rather poor execution's and materials' quality...what a pitty! :scowl: