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Need a new 15" and 10" speakers...suggestions?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by SGS, Mar 21, 2010.


  1. SGS

    SGS

    Mar 21, 2010
    Hello all. This would be my first post here, although I have surfed the forum before.

    Like the title says, I need some new speakers. A few months ago I picked up a Dean Markley K-300B for $130. The speaker, which is the original as far as I know, is literally falling apart. Time for a replacement :)

    I'm considering a 15" Peavey Black Widow as a replacement (1502 specifically, 8ohm). The price is about right at $140-160 online. I'm currently playing a Dean 5 string with dual EMG soapbar pickups and passive electronics. I'm not using any effects or pre-amp, I play clean (no distortion), I play metal mostly, and I detest using a pick. Dunno if my playing style will influence anyone's input or not, and it probably shouldn't. The fact that I'm using a 5 string might though. The Black Widow 1502 is rated for a 40hz usable frequency but it should be okay for hitting the low B. If anyone knows otherwise please speak up!


    Anyway, the price for a Black Widow and the fact that its a Peavey are pushing me towards buying one. I need a speaker that can handle the 150 watts this amp puts out when run at 4ohms and this seems to be the obvious choice. However, I am open to suggestions.

    Thanks!
     
  2. SGS

    SGS

    Mar 21, 2010
    In the thread title I said 15 and 10" speakers. I wanted to break the 10" speaker discussion into a separate post since I'm not just asking for speaker suggestions but I also want a crossover.

    I picked up a late 70s/early 80s Peavey 2x10 cabinet a few months ago. I got it as a straight trade for a Carvin 15" with horn loudspeaker cab that I bought 15 years ago and never used so it worked out great for me :D

    The cab doesn't have Peavey speakers in it as the previous owner loaded 2 Advent speakers in their place (Advent was a speaker company from the 60s/70s and at the time their home stereo speakers were amazing). They give me a clean, clear sound, especially with notes above A.

    Now I'm not just thinking about adding a pair of 4ohm speakers wired in series for an 8ohm load. I am also considering adding a crossover. I want to keep the 10s from going below 40hz. I like the sound I can get down low with the 15" and a pair of 10s going; nice and thick from the 15" with a lot of clarity added from the 10s. However, the 10s don't need to try to push out everything from 31-40hz when I'm on my low B string. On the other side, I don't need the 15" running anything over 150hz.


    My idea is to install the crossover into the 2x10 cabinet so when I want to run the 2x10s and the 15" I can plug right into the 2x10 and run a speaker line back for the 15". I'm looking for a suggestion on crossovers for this setup.

    I'm also looking for a pair of 10" speakers (4ohm to be wired in series, presenting my amp with a 4ohm load when the 2x10 and 15" speakers are running) so I can replace the Advents with good bass speakers. I am considering Peavey Scorpions since they are made for bass guitar but I am very open to suggestions.


    So what crossovers and 10" speakers would you suggest? This isn't as high of a priority as putting a new 15" speaker into my amp but I am trying to get ideas. I'm considering throwing a tweeter into the the 2x10 cabinet eventually but its not necessary. 10" speakers seem to get every sound that I want with the crispness I want as well, but I would like the option to add a tweeter eventually.

    Thanks!
     
  3. rpsands

    rpsands

    Jul 6, 2007
    Phoenix, AZ
    The Peavey speakers are overpriced junk compared to Eminence drivers, for bass guitar applications.

    We need to know internal space for each cabinet and any porting.

    That said: If I were to pick a random 15 to drop into any cabinet it would be the Kappalite 3015, which you can get from BeachAudio, Lenrom.com, or Speakerhardware for <130 bucks.
     
  4. SGS

    SGS

    Mar 21, 2010
    Peavey is that "bad?" Their amps are tanks, but I'm surprised to hear that about their speakers.

    Thanks for asking the internal volume. I forgot about that when it comes to speakers.


    After I subtracted for the thickness of the wood (1", and I did subtract twice because that's 1" on each side), the Dean measures approx 19.5x15x10 internally for 1.77 cu ft. If we want to err on a little bit safer side lets say 1.7 cu ft internally.

    Again, subtracting for wood thickness the Peavey is approximately 24x14x10 internally for about 1.9 cu ft. Inside the 2x10 cabinet both speakers share the same airspace. When I've built 2x12 subwoofer cabinets I have always separated it into 2 chambers so I was a little shocked when I saw that the speakers share the same airspace.


    Both cabinets are sealed.

    I don't remember if there's any poly fill in the 2x10 cabinet. I'm not sure about the inside of the Dean since I haven't had the speaker out yet. Should there be fill inside of them like there is with subwoofers or should they be empty?
     
  5. rpsands

    rpsands

    Jul 6, 2007
    Phoenix, AZ
    Their raw speakers are heavy and underspecced. The neos are just underspecced. For bass cabinets. The ones that are solid are twice the price of the equivalent eminence in pretty much every situation.

    1.7cf, not a lot of 15s are going to behave great unless its sealed. I would consider a few options for the 15-
    -If it is sealed, try an eminence beta 15a - 64 bucks from Beach audio and will give decent performance in that size.
    -If it's ported, seal the port and use the beta
    -Cut a new baffle and replace with a 12" driver like a Deltalite 2512 or Basslite S2012. This is a lot of trouble, but the 1.7cf space is really limiting for most ported 15s. I can't think of any offhand that would work well in that space.

    Other people may chime in with some suggestions but a ported 1.7cf cab is a severe limitation for a 15" driver to be pushed very hard.

    -------------------------------

    Regarding the Peavey cab. It is extremely common for cabs using the same woofer to share airspace, and nothing is wrong with it at all.

    Replace the drivers with Basslite S2010s - they'll perform well in ~1cf per driver and accept a range of tunings.

    They are 63 bucks apiece from Beachaudio or Lenrom.com. Similar from Speakerhardware.
     
  6. SGS

    SGS

    Mar 21, 2010
    Like I said, the 15" combo is sealed.

    I wouldn't attempt to redo the baffle and run a 12". I'll stick with the 15 unless there's a HUGE advantage to dropping to a 12" (as in the 12" speaker you mentioned is so superior to any 15" out there).


    I'll look up those speakers for reviews. Thanks!
     
  7. rpsands

    rpsands

    Jul 6, 2007
    Phoenix, AZ
    Missed that. Get the 15a. It will have a big bump in the upper bass (maybe 4db).

    A nice ported 12 ~1.7cf will be smoother down low but not outperform it. As long as you're OK with the midbass boom the 15a is a good bet.
     
  8. INTP

    INTP

    Nov 28, 2003
    Dallas, TX
    I like rpsands's suggestion. It's nice that Eminence provides some sample cab designs for their drivers. They list a sealed cab about that size in one of the examples:
    http://www.eminence.com/pdf/cab-beta-15a.pdf


    I have a EV Force 15 (no longer made) that is close to the specs of the Beta 15a (but lower power) in a box about that size. The bottom end isn't huge, but it still sounds good. It cuts through the mix well, too.
     
  9. rpsands

    rpsands

    Jul 6, 2007
    Phoenix, AZ
    To be fair, Bill (BFM) is the guy who I yoinked that thought from :)
     
  10. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    The Beta 15A will produce a roughly +4 dB peak at about 110 Hz, with fairly rapid rolloff below, in a stuffed 1.55 cubic foot box (I'm taking into account an estimate of the volume occupied by the speaker itself). That much of a peak may or may not be desirable, but it would not be my preference.

    In my opinion either of the 15" Kappalites are candidates for a 1.55 cubic foot ported box. No that's not an ideal box size, but with the 3015 for example you'd have less than 1 dB of upper bass hump and over 2 dB more broadband efficiency. The bass rolloff would be more gradual than the sealed-box Beta 15a (I know that's counter-intuitive, but this is an unusual case), and overall the bass region would respond to EQ better in my opinion. You could goose the region below 100 Hz by 4 dB and be back in the same amplifier power requirement ballpark as the Beta 15a, but with smoother bass and deeper extension (-3 dB at the 62 Hz first overtone of low-B, as opposed to -7 dB with the Beta 15a).
     
  11. rpsands

    rpsands

    Jul 6, 2007
    Phoenix, AZ
    You know, it does model like you say, but my understanding is some folks have given this a shot and it did not turn out well -- e.g. stuffing the 3015 in a tiny box.

    Given the design situation (a small combo without a ton of power) and the complication of cutting new ports, and the extra ~80 dollars of cost, I would stick with the beta myself, and just dial out the boom by playing toward the bridge or using eq.
     
  12. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    Thanks for responding, rpsands, and I appreciate your taking the time to double-check my modelling.

    I'll do a search and try to find posts about the 3015 in a small box, but do you recall offhand what the problems were?

    I just looked at the S2012 in 1.6 cubic feet tuned to 44 Hz, and I think your suggestion to use a 12 makes a lot of sense as long as the reduced efficiency isn't an issue. Gosh, seems like there's always tradeoffs, doesn't it??
     
  13. rpsands

    rpsands

    Jul 6, 2007
    Phoenix, AZ
    Always. I want to say someone stuffed a 3015 into a Bag End 1.8-2cf cabinet and had some terrible results; I can't say I recall what they were. It could just be hearsay, of course, as different hears hear different things. It's enough to make me hesitant to recommend spending ~150 bucks on it for a small combo anyway.

    If one can mod the cab, using an S2012, 3012HO or Deltalite 2512 would all do very well in that size according to my models. The deltalite looks the best to me. They're all way smoother under 200hz.

    Modding the cab to add ports would be almost as annoying as modding it to take a smaller speaker, so if one bothered modding it at all I'd just put a new baffle in and add use an S2012 - almost as cheap as the beta.
     
  14. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    If it was an unequalized sealed cab, that could have been a problem. And if used with the Bag End Infra EQ system, there could have been a mismatch between the EQ system's transfer function and the woofer's response - that's just a guess.

    I was thinking of just adding a round plastic tube port to the back of the cabinet. Haven't modelled airspeeds yet, but I think a single 4" diameter port would be in the ballpark for this application.

    Regarding the 2x10, SGS wants to end up with an 8 ohm load for that cab. Do you know of sources for either 4 ohm or 16 ohm 10" woofers that are suitable for bass guitar and not terribly expensive?
     
  15. rpsands

    rpsands

    Jul 6, 2007
    Phoenix, AZ
    B&C 10nw64s come in 16 ohms. They are very pricey.

    The absolute best he's going to do without cadging some replacement Avatar deltalites is the Carvin 10" 4 ohm neos.
    http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=NE10-4&cid=70

    They aren't fantastic, but they will work better than most things in that price range. Fs is a little high, Xmax a little low.

    If he's willing not to go neo, 4 ohm BP102s would work fine, but be a bit soft on top.
     
  16. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    Thanks, rpsands.

    I had a pair of 10NW64s, 8 ohm version, and the resonant frequency was above 100 Hz and stayed there even after twelve hours of 25-Hz high-amplitude sine wave break-in. I've never had a problem like that before or since with B&C drivers, but promising as that driver looks I've crossed it off my list.

    The Carvin sounds like the front-runner to me at this point.
     
  17. rpsands

    rpsands

    Jul 6, 2007
    Phoenix, AZ
    The listed Fs is 50hz, which is totally usable (although not ideal). Might be worthwhile contacting B&C to see if it's an issue with the particular woofers you got.

    Another one I forgot about is the Faital 10PR300. Not an ideal Fs either, and the Qts is a bit low (borderline I think) but about on par with the Carvin - and a lot more Xmax, so you could pump it with some more eq. Still, don't think that's quite worth twice the price of the Carvins :)

    If it were me I'd probably just figure out a way to make basslites work. They are so much superior to everything else out there for the money it's hard to stomach the sacrifices you have to make for ohms.

    Oh, one more thing: Carvin is really, really slow about updating their specs. It is possible that the NE-4 has been upgraded since the last time they posted them.
     
  18. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    Rpsands, I did contact the B&C distributor and he said there had been no changes since the woofers were introduced, and didn't reply to my offer to return one so they could check it out (too much time had elapsed between purchase date and testing for me to make a warranty claim - lesson learned there).

    I had forgotten about the Faital. According to my arithmetic the voice coil overhang is only 2.5 mm one-way, which is pretty small, though it's possible that the actual linear excursion is greater.

    I think the Carvin looks like the front-runner at this point.
     
  19. rpsands

    rpsands

    Jul 6, 2007
    Phoenix, AZ
    Yeah I concur. For a straight retrofit, it's the best neo option.

    I'd still give some serious thought to the BP102-4s though, as I would expect them to sound a lot better. Bp102's a nice sounding driver and cheaper even than the Carvin (weight being the big issue).

    The price difference gets you half-way to an Alphalite 6CBMR, and 1.6khz eminence crossovers are on sale quite cheaply (32 bucks with a jack plate) all over the place. Probably do pretty well.
     
  20. SGS

    SGS

    Mar 21, 2010
    Okay, I've been reading through this and I'll have to read it again because I just finished off a 12 hour day and I'm a bit tired :)

    I am sticking with a 15" speaker and I'm not going to port the cabinet. I'm drawing both those lines right there. I really appreciate the very indepth discussion on all of this. I have build car subwoofer boxes before and delved deep into specs in the past so a lot of this is coming right back to me.

    When the Eminence Beta was named the first thing I did was look it up and go for specs. I saw that there is a sharp drop off below 50hz. That made my heart sink a bit, since I know I need to reproduce at 40hz and even lower, as we all know that. On my amp I have 2 things to help "compensate" a bit. In addition to the standard low/mid/high knobs there is also a bass boost (not sure what freq it boosts at) and I have a 9 band EQ with 15db +/- with the lowest freq being 32hz, then 63 and then 125. Also, there is a mid-shift but that doesn't start until 200hz, long past the point we're worrying about getting sufficient low end.

    I'm thinking that with the EQ and bass boost at my disposal I can help to shove more power into those weaker areas. The past month I've been playing simply with my 2x10 cab hooked up to the amp and I've had to add a ton more low end to enjoy playing.

    I do plan on keeping this combo amp for a while, probably a good year or two before the budget allows me to move to a really good head and a kick ass (probably custom/home built) cabinet. So in the interim I do want good sound from this amp, however, provided everything holds up without a problem I can turn around and dump it off for $200 even in 2 years. If I drop a $65 speaker into it now and can get good sound out of it by adding more bass via EQ and what not, then I will make all my money back on this if I can drop it off for $200 down the road.

    I am going to re-read everything tomorrow, after I've rested and can process some things better, but I wanted to throw these things out onto the table and get feedback.

    Thanks! :)
     
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