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Need help to ID this Fender gear

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by kas_lar, Oct 1, 2005.


  1. kas_lar

    kas_lar

    Jan 12, 2005
    Denmark
    Hey guys..
    This Fender cab and amp is almost mine, but not until next friday. The seller doesn't know anything about bassgear so I just have to examen these pictures.

    Take a look, and tell which Fender Bassman amp you think it is.
    No I havn't any serials... Just have to wait to friday...

    Regards
    Kasper
     

    Attached Files:

  2. danomite64

    danomite64

    Nov 16, 2004
    Tampa, Florida
    Uhh, a 1969 Fender Bassman, right? I'm not an expert on these, but electronically this may be the same as a blackface Bassman.
     
  3. kas_lar

    kas_lar

    Jan 12, 2005
    Denmark
    Dunno...
    I havn't tried it yet. But it's a steal. It's like 800 $ in Danish krones for the head + cab..
    How do you date it? If I can't get the serial until friday? Any Fender experts nearby?
     
  4. danomite64

    danomite64

    Nov 16, 2004
    Tampa, Florida
    I dated in because the grillcloth has aluminum piping around it, and that happened from late '68 through all of '69, If memory serves.
     
  5. kas_lar

    kas_lar

    Jan 12, 2005
    Denmark
    how much is such a thing worth in US dollars?
    But yeah, you're right...
    I justed searched ebay and found a few matching items... item #7354559863 and 7354355886

    Can you tell something about the cab?
     
  6. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Most definetely a CBS Fender Bassman, late '60s, a good amp but almost zero collector value being post '65. The cab may be older, making it more collectable, but with the original drivers it's almost unplayable. Forget about any power below an open A. Worthless on five string. But it would be a killer guitar rig.

    You won't get much out of that Bassman head, it's only a 50 watter. Considering the lack of collector value I'd expect you could find something of more recent vintage that would be a better purchase.
     
  7. 800 $ in Danish krones? Man that's something like 130 US bucks! He's practically giving it away. :cool:
     
  8. kas_lar

    kas_lar

    Jan 12, 2005
    Denmark
    -> billfitzmaurice
    50 watt! Is there a chance it could be a 100watt? hmmm and by: "Forget about any power below an open A" you mean, that there isn't enough bass sound for a P bass?

    Mudbass - >No sorry. It's 5000 danish kroner~800$ but Fender Bassman amp are difficult to find in Denmark.
     
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  10. kas_lar

    kas_lar

    Jan 12, 2005
    Denmark
    yeah. But again in Denmark it's a good price. So I'll buy it and try it out. Just for the sound,otherwise I'll sell it and earn a few bucks..
    Ok, it's only a 50 watter... damn.

    But thanks for the ID! Fender experts...
     
  11. jz0h4d

    jz0h4d

    Apr 26, 2005
    Ever watch the Beatles playing on the roof of Apple studio?
    Sir Paul is plugged into a 50 watt Bassman with a 2-12 bottom. It will sound great just not as loud as modern bass rigs.
     
  12. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    I had a '65 Bassman. Bought it new. Even with two cabs barely enough power to get by, and you couldn't play an open E without farting. Ever. Fahgedaboutit.
    Not in that short chassis. 100 watters used the same chassis as the Twin/Dual Showman.
     
  13. Matt H

    Matt H

    Jul 30, 2005
    Ithaca, NY
    actually, post '65 bassman are going for more and more money every month. good luck finding a '68 bassman head (like above) for under 300 anymore- you can't do it unless you have a magical find.

    it's a 68-69 "drip edge" bassman. it's still pretty close to the blackface circuit, if not identical. (i can never keep track of when they started making revisions of the bassman... i THINK it was in mid '69).


    anyway, yeah, no chance it's a 100W amp. they didn't introduce a bassman 100 (four 6l6GC, non-ultra-linear) until after the aluminum trim era. then they introduced a bassman 135 (at the same time as the bassman 70) which ran ultralinear in the output section, and actually works better for bass (though terrible for guitar... unlike the earlier bassmans, which are great for guitar but horrible for bass).

    anyway- i have ZERO clue what's up with that cab... fender just didnt make blonde tolex stuff after what, late 63? so either that's a re-tolex job, or that's a much older cab (which i kind of doubt). or it's a beat-to-hell reissue. regardless, the cab isn't going to be very good for bass.

    i wish i could tell you more about the cabinet.
     
  14. BassGreaser

    BassGreaser

    Aug 22, 2002
    Austin, TX
    I've been playing through a Bassman 135 for two years now and LOVE the tone I get from her!! I saw find a 135 :D
     
  15. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Sort of. My '65 was a CBS, first generation, blackface and unchanged from the original Fender specs. When CBS came out with the silverface they didn't alter the circuit, but they made some 'improvements' to the construction, including shielded wiring and tighter tolerance capacitors. Technically they made it a better amp from a signal to noise standpoint, but those improvements also changed the tone, and not for the better.
     
  16. Matt H

    Matt H

    Jul 30, 2005
    Ithaca, NY

    i got frustrated not being able to remember, and dug out the schematics for the amps in question.

    first of all, if your amp is from '65, it's not the original blackface circuit, it's the second (ab165) circuit. The aa864 circuit was the "original" and there were a fair number of differences between the two that seriously affect the tonality of the amps. the ab165 uses both global and local negative feedback and the breakup characteristic is very very different.

    also, the cbs engineers did more than just tighten cap tolerances on the bass over the years. From the original blackface to the AB165 circuit, they (as i said before) introduced local feedback in the preamp, reduced coupling capacitor values from the PI going into the power tubes- but only to make up for the huge mistake they made of increasing the value of the coupling caps leading from the preamp into the PI (HUUUUUUUGE mistake, for bass or guitar). Not to mention voltages were raised a bit. There were also some preamp changes (namely aroundthe tone stack of the "bass" channel) between these two models. then there's the silly cbs-approved bias schemes that are just silly and unhelpful.


    As the cbs engineers continued working their "magic", the amp actually took on a character more conducive to bass rather than lead guitar. Around 71, the next major revision came out, and was fully a "silver face". they mostly corrected the coupling cap into power tubes issue. Except, they also added caps from the grids to ground- to quash oscillation. (because their builds were LESS stable, not more stable). Unfortunately, these things suck tone like nobodies business, and really shouldn't be there. the model got renamed the "bassman 50", and a bassman 100 was introduced.

    the bassman 70/135 were essentially (with exception, of course) the "same" as the 50/100 were, but ran ultra-linear powre amps, to squeeze a few more watts of clean headroom out. good for bass-, but cbs overdid the negative feedback (since UL is a form of nfb anyway) and when these things distort, it just gets unpleasant. the 100/135 models had preamps with less gain in them, and they lost the stage wtih the local negative feedback entirely. The 100 was released in '72, the 70 and 135 were released in 77.

    around '75, master volumes started appearing on the bassman 50, and possibly the 100 but i've never seen one with it.

    what does all of this mean? they were good for lead guitar. cbs showed up, made mistakes on the initial revision which weren't good mistakes, making it still fine for guitar, really bad for bass. and then their corrections (minus the crappy bias system and tone stucking caps on the power tube grids) on the later models turned them into decent early (smallish) bass amps. (vs the larger ampegs and sunns).
     
  17. Lame Thrower

    Lame Thrower Supporting Member

    May 13, 2005
    Sacramento, CA
    kas_lar, you might also want to keep in mind that an amp of that age might need several hundred dollars in repairs just to make it playable. Especially if you're buying it without hearing it. It's likely to have scratchy pots, bad tubes, and capacitors that need replacing.

    I bought this guy:
    [​IMG]

    ...in the early '90s for $200. New tubes and a recap job were $200 more. I obviously haven't gotten too far on the cosmetics. :meh:

    I won't try to discourage you, but you should know what you're in for.

    Matt H, as long as you've got your schematics out... :) Is it safe to drive a 2 Ohm load with one of these? I know they're rated for 4, but I've been told it's capable of going lower. Mine is a '69 Super Bassman (100w). I think it's the CFA7002 circuit.
     
  18. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    That's basically a Twin/Dual Showman with no reverb or tremolo. I used a Dual Showman Reverb to drive my PA back in 70-71, it was far better than the crap industrial Bogen PA amps that were the standard of the day. Not knowing any better I routinely drove 1 ohm loads with it, never bothered it a bit.
     
  19. The 0x

    The 0x

    Aug 24, 2003
    Timonium, MD
    The post '67 bassman heads are MUCH different than the pre-67 bassman heads. The preamp was "improved" for more headroom after '67, making them a bit better for bass. The Blackface heads were great guitar amps (the 67s were silverface but had the blackface circuit), but for many were too overdriven for bass. There are circuit changes. The silverface ones are much different than the blackface ones.

    I had a bassman 135, and with a booster pedal, it was killer for guitar!!! LOUD as hell too.
     
  20. Matt H

    Matt H

    Jul 30, 2005
    Ithaca, NY

    it should be able to handle a 2 ohm load just fine. here are some "general suggestions" (i dare not say rules) about tube amps...

    1) mismatching the imedance will generally result with a LOSS in power, not gain like how most solid state amps work
    1b) the loss in power is less of an issue if you're adding more speakers. generally, the efficiency of the speakers and number of speakers matters a lot more in volume wars than the actual wattage... within reason, of course.

    2) if the amp has appropriatedly rated transformers (in this case, the output transformer, or OT), an impedance mismatch can be handled with no ill effects. how much of a mismatch is ok? generally, the "one size up, one size down" will apply... in other words, an amp looking for 4 ohms can run either 2 or 8 ohms... but 1 or 16 ohms is a bad iidea (too far).

    2b) with fenders, the "one up, one down" is really almost a rule. Look to their combo amps... they'll have a twin (wanting a 4 ohm load) running into it's own 4 ohm load (a pair of 8 ohm speakers in the combo cab in parallel)... then, they'll put an "external speaker" jack that's wired in parallel. In other words- no matter WHAT sized ext. jack you run, it's going to lower the total impedance on the secondary of the OT. if they didn't want you to run the internal speakers AND an external jack... don't you think they'd just put a SINGLE output jack on and make you unplug the combo's own speakers?

    3) it's generally more dangerous to run a tube amp with too HIGH a secondary impedance than a lower one... if the secondary impedance is too high (that is, say you've put a 16ohm speaker on an amp looking for 2 ohms), you can actually create REALLY REALLY high flyback voltages back to the tube plates... this can toast the tubes AND the output transformer...

    (however, this amp doesn't have much in common with a twin or showman except having 4 6l6gc's for about 100W out and the same vague "family resemblance" that the rest of fenders amps during that era did... the bassman line has always been a bit unique, nothing different here. it's possible, and likely, that this amp DOES use the same power and output transformers as the twin...).