Psst... Ready to join TalkBass and start posting, make new friends, sell your gear, and more?  Register your free account in 30 seconds.

need some big low-end

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by beachgeddy, Nov 16, 2001.


  1. beachgeddy

    beachgeddy

    Jul 11, 2001
    Muskegon, MI
    Here's my story. In my new band theres two guitar players tuned real low, Db to Db and drop to B for a lot of songs. Both guitars play thru Marshall rigs, one 4x12 and one 4x12+2x12, so they are extremely loud and sound good. But I'm getting buried in that mix, even tho we are in the garage right now and playing in clubs we wouldnt be quite that loud. We'll be playing all different size clubs/bars. My rig kept up with my old band, but now I need to be LOUD and have huge bigass low-end. I have a Eden time traveler 330 watts, and a peavey tfx 410, and I've been turning it almost all the way up and pushing it way too hard. I'm thinking I'll need to add a 18 cab to what I've got, and maybe get a power amp if I need to and use the eden as a pre-amp (since I just bought it not too long ago and I like the sound).

    Would this be my best route to take, or is there a better way to get the big lows I need? What are some good subwoofers for bass rigs?
     
  2. You will need for sure:
    • Loads of Power
    • A Bunch of Speakers
    • A truck or van
    • Help moving it all

    Consider a QSC PLX 3002 or larger amp. You are going to need it.

    :D

    You need lots of speaker cone area to move the air required for loud volumes at low B. You will also need to bi-amp because true subwoofers don't perform above 80 ~ 100 Hz.

    My own rig is built on true subwoofers and driven with a 3,000 watt QSC. I figure I'd need four 1x15 Rockford subs bi-amped with either 2x10 or preferably 4x10 JBL E110 to keep up with the Marshalls. As it stands right now, my pair of 1x15 subs and single 2x10 JBL box, plus my rack, fills the entire bed of my Toyota Tacoma pickup truck.
     
  3. beachgeddy

    beachgeddy

    Jul 11, 2001
    Muskegon, MI
    Is it possible to run my 410 with my Eden 330 watt head, and then run an 18" with a separate power amp? Would that sound good at all?

    -or-

    Could I run the 410 from the speaker output of my Eden, then run an 18" via the preamp output of the Eden to a power amp to the 18"? Would I run into ohmage problems? Do I ask too many questions? sorry I just need some stuff explained to me . . . :confused:
     
  4. Get one of those Bag End 2x18s that can go to 7 or 8 Hz. :D
     
  5. beachgeddy

    beachgeddy

    Jul 11, 2001
    Muskegon, MI
    . . . and a few roadies to help me drag it from bar to bar thru the Michigan weather :rolleyes: . . .
     
  6. MikeyD

    MikeyD

    Sep 9, 2000
    This seems like a good approach. You might try bringing your rig into a music store and trying it out on a power amp and 1x18 or 2x15. I think your idea will work, especially if the output voltage of the Eden preamp is reasonably close to the full-power input required from the power amp (which is often the case).

    My approach was to get a second complete (Carvin) amp head so I'd have lots more options, plus a spare head in case one of them died on a gig (or had to be out for repairs). Also - if you get a second head, you can slave them together and individually control the EQ to each cabinet. The Carvin R1000 can be had new for about US$670 and can provide 800-1000 watts bridged into 4 ohms.

    When shopping for your "subwoofer", be mindful of the Big Tradeoff: small size, good low frequency response, and high efficiency - you can't have all three. You have to decide on an acceptable compromise between these three facets.

    Finally, make sure your guitarists cut you some slack on their bass EQ: I have found that when guitarists boost their bass too much, it becomes really hard to hear the bass guitar. It would be even worse for drop tunings, I'd expect.

    - Mike
     
  7. beachgeddy

    beachgeddy

    Jul 11, 2001
    Muskegon, MI
    ok what about this . . .

    say I use my boss bass chorus pedal to split into two signals and run:

    signal A (mono, no effect) to a power amp and 18"

    signal B (stereo chorus effect) to my Eden\410

    hhmmmmmmmm . . . or instead of power amp maybe the carvin 600 watt head for more options hmm that might just work . . .
     
  8. MikeyD

    MikeyD

    Sep 9, 2000
    I don't know what voltage your chorus pedal puts out. Most power amps need about 1 volt to get full output, so if your pedal can deliver that, you're all set.

    If you're going to swing for a Carvin head, I recommend the R1000 - it's only $80 more than the R600, and has more "gumption". When bridged into 4 ohms, it's a pretty convincing powerhouse.

    I have both heads, so I have 4 amp channels, two full EQ sections, and tons of hook-up and speaker load options to play with. I have more flexibility with the two of them (and power options up to 1600 watts) than I know what to do with!

    - Mike
     
  9. beachgeddy

    beachgeddy

    Jul 11, 2001
    Muskegon, MI
    I dont know man its a regular boss bass chorus CEB-3 and runs on 9v battery . . .

    yea I agree about the R1000, I'm sure that with an 18 would fix my problem . . .

    luckily we wont begin playing out til Jan. or Feb., so I have time to shop around. I was also considering upgrading to a better 410, such as Eden D410XST or Ampeg PR-410HLF. I like the sound of ported 410s, but would these cabs produce the big fat low end I need? These were the 410s with the lowest frequency response that I could find. I'm sure there are more expensive ones tho. My peavey cab is ported, but it doesnt seem to like my low Ab string.

    hmmm well I think an 18 would be more suitable at any rate. Can I get a good 18" for under a grand?
     
  10. captainpabst

    captainpabst

    Mar 18, 2001
    Tennessee
    this cab will solve your problem affordably. running an amp between it and the pre-out on the head could only be better.

    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7...3183722903/search/g=home/detail/base_id/56892

    these are on closeout. i ordered the s210t, and my first impression (i've played it a little at low volumes) is very good. you couldn't go wrong.

    heck, you could get the c215 and c410t for 698! (i'm considering doing the same!) then get a carvin power amp and you're set! that would definitely provide the punch and volume you need. i'm going to write a short review of the 210 in my alumabass thread - check it out.
     
  11. VicDamone

    VicDamone

    Jun 25, 2000
    I think MikeyD's suggestion for mulitpal amps and outputs would be a good foundation to start with. Straight off you need more juice. You seem to be going to the 1-18" as a solution for low frequency. Be clear that while a typical full range 18" may provide a rounder tone they generaly don't go as low in frequency as many 4-10" systems. You should try an 18" before you buy. Getting into subwoofer systems can be costly at this point.

    A friend of mine plays in a band similar to yours and had the same problem with an Ampeg 4-10" and an Eden Traveler. He ended up with two 1-15" Bag End's powerd by a 3002 QSC PLX.
     
  12. Obsius29A

    Obsius29A

    Dec 20, 1999
    Huntington, NY
    Hey listen man...

    I used to use a VHT Ultralead half stack (ever hear of these thing? They will eat your friend's Marshall for lunch), and my other guitarist used a Flextone head/Soldano cab.

    Our bass player used a Modulus 5 into an alembic preamp into a fairly low power amp (~300W? It was called a Power base- 3 I think. Maybe Crest or Crown made it?) into a carvin 4x10. He had no trouble cutting through with a lot of definition and big booty for heavy stuff.

    Most recently (a year ago), he used a nemesis 2x10 combo while me and the other guy used line6 half stacks. He cut.

    How loud are your guitarists playing? Unless they are dimed the problems are with frequencies they have dialed in. I posted about this a day or two ago.
     
  13. beachgeddy

    beachgeddy

    Jul 11, 2001
    Muskegon, MI
    put it this way, I'll have to cause minor earthquakes to be heard over those guitars . . . hmm next time we practice I'll check out their EQ settings, I didnt think of that . . . VHT Ultralead? never heard of it. where can I get info on this beast?
     
  14. MikeyD

    MikeyD

    Sep 9, 2000
    That doesn't say anything about its voltage output. It might work driving a power amp, but the voltage output has to be high enough. But if you're going to get a second head - or drive the power amp off your main preamp - this won't be an issue.
    I don't think most 10"-loaded cabinets can produce a serious-loud-low rumble the way 15s and 18s do (there is a lot of physics behind this). I suppose a pair of Eden 410XLTs might be fairly robust, though, but that's a lot of money. If you can relegate your 4x10 to mid-upper bass duty, you can get a lot of volume out of it, while you cover the deep low end with something else.

    According to my notes, Eden's 1x18 can be had for around $650 (or less), their 2x15 for ~$700; SWR's Big Ben 1x18 was around $550, Bag End's S18B-B was ~$550. These numbers might be out of date now, and of course depend a lot on where you shop. You'll also have to factor shipping if you buy mail-order. I don't strongly recommend Carvin's 1x18 because it isn't that great a performer; but it's still a decent value at $360. I have seen very favorable comments about Mesa/Boogie bass cabinets, too.

    - Mike
     
  15. beachgeddy

    beachgeddy

    Jul 11, 2001
    Muskegon, MI
    use my Eden as pre-amp, use my 410, get a 18 such as SWR big ben, for a power amp either the carvin R1000 or save a few bills and just get a carvin power amp. If I use just a regular power amp, would that be a sacrifice of tone? and would the frequency be split up between the two cabs without a crossover in the amp? I mean with lows to the 18, hi and mid to the 410. I think there is crossover built in to the cabs but not sure how that works . . .
     
  16. leper

    leper

    Jun 21, 2001
    mmmmmm.....vht....they dont just eat marshalls, they eat everything :)
     
  17. beachgeddy

    beachgeddy

    Jul 11, 2001
    Muskegon, MI
    leper, what is the VHT? power? price? I need something that will blow these guys out of the water! :D
     
  18. leper

    leper

    Jun 21, 2001
    haha, vht doesnt make bass gear, just guitar gear that makes you wanna cry it sounds so good.

    my post was in response to obsious
     
  19. beachgeddy

    beachgeddy

    Jul 11, 2001
    Muskegon, MI
    oh. I see. good thing these guys dont have em then.
     
  20. Steven Green

    Steven Green

    Jul 25, 2001
    Pacific NW
    I got an Eden D-118XL from BassNW *new* for only about $500! Check it out...

    Bass NW