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Need Speaker Suggestions for Cover Band

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Gearhead17, Jun 18, 2007.


  1. Gearhead17

    Gearhead17 Supporting Member

    May 4, 2006
    Mount Prospect, IL
    My cover band is currently looking for shows and several of the places do not have PA Support, some don't even have stages. We want to play for: fun, free alcohol, and money, if we can get it. We play Alternative, 90's rock, and some classic rock. Bands like: The Killers, Ramones, Ataris, Sublime, Foo Fighters, Lit, Blur, Green Day and so on.

    I play a 5 string Spector Euro bass which gives me just about any sound I want. I am a finger style player, I use a pick when needed, and slap every now and then. So versatility is important to me. My current rig consists of two Ampeg SVT 410hlf's, GK 1001RB as the pre-amp, Crown XTI 4000 power amp, all pumping over 1000 watts into each cabinet in stereo mode. The Ampeg Cabs are not giving me the tone I want out of them. I am looking to get the sound of the strings on my bass to come through the speakers more accurately. I feel the Ampeg 410hlf's project a massive amount of mud with little to no string definition. Along with that, at 97DB SPL, the Ampeg cabs are not very efficient and require me to pump all the power I can into them for enough volume over my band; singer, two guitarists, and a loud drummer. Guitarists have 100 watt tube amps and run through 412 and the other guy uses a 212. The guitarists collectively are not crazy loud, we actually set our levels prior to practice starting. The Drummer is a loud one (ever met a quiet one?:p ) with a custom drum set made purely out of Maple - it thunders pretty loud. We have two JBL EON 15's for the vocals - loud enough to be heard.

    I am looking for two cabinets (preferably two 410's) to give me louder low end (40hz-100hz), more midrange articulation (400-700hz), and clear highs (2khz-8khz). I want the cabinets to be much more versatile than the Ampeg's - it seems the Ampeg's give you one sound regardless of what you plug into it. I like the sound of my bass and I want use that tone as much as possible with only some coloration of the pre-amp. I need cabs that can really SPREAD sound and hold their own in small outdoor shows. I have heard Schroeders can do exactly what I want, I plan to try them out, but is there anything else out there that I should look at? I want to keep as many options open as I can. Thank you for your help.
     
  2. Gearhead17

    Gearhead17 Supporting Member

    May 4, 2006
    Mount Prospect, IL
    *bump*

    I appreciate anyone's input on this issue.

    Thanks for your time
     
  3. RADUB1

    RADUB1

    May 11, 2006
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Eden 410xlt's.....if you want, 1 410xlt and 1 410xst....
     
  4. Gearhead17

    Gearhead17 Supporting Member

    May 4, 2006
    Mount Prospect, IL
    I do not favor any of these cabs:

    Ampeg, GK, Mesa, Behringer, Markbass, Trace Elliot, and Peavey, Eden.

    Honestly, the tones from these cabs do not give me what I want.

    What about the Epifani UL610? Can this cab really pump out volume and great tone?
     
  5. will33

    will33

    May 22, 2006
    austin,tx
    You're playing out in the same situation I'm most familiar with, rigs providing all the sound, PA is vocals only, maybe a little ambient drums to fill out the sound. You're playing a 1001rb so the problems not with your amp, it may be with just plain having too much SPL's for the size room you're in but you've found the same problem I've found with damn near any Ampeg, (might get axed for saying this around here:bag: but they're muddy, no other word for it, just plain muddy and indistinct sounding.) If you're looking for deep bass, find something with BP102's in it or a pair of Acme Low B-2's or a Low B-4 or some of Fitzmaurice's horn loaded designs. If you're looking for full bass across the audience with some defintion so the people can tell what you're playing, not just notice something's missing of you stop, look at cabs that are crossed over with a 6 or 8" mid driver. This stops the bigger speakers from "beaming" or putting out the mids in the hot spot right in front of your rig but move to the side and your missing something and back to that same old muddy stuff. If you're into old school sound you're probably not much for tweeters, I'm not either but having a mid driver makes a big difference to the audience, you sound more full, articulate and even left to right in front of the rig as the sound spreads more evenly throughout the room. Turn up too loud and you'll have a bunch of frequencies cancelling each other out and you won't hear them no matter how much you turn up, that is you personally won't hear them where you are but the guy at the back of the bar will be getting pummeled with bass and won't hear the rest of the music clearly, resulting in an equally shi*ty mix.
     
  6. Gearhead17

    Gearhead17 Supporting Member

    May 4, 2006
    Mount Prospect, IL
    will33 ;

    Thanks for your input. I have not looked into the Acme Cabs -I will now. Mid Drivers - I have not tried one out, mybe it is truly what I need.

    I like new school and old school tones - tweeters actually work well for me and I don't use them excessively. They allow me to hear my notes much better.

    I like a full bass tone - low, mids, highs I don't like to leave anything out.
     
  7. will33

    will33

    May 22, 2006
    austin,tx
    If you like a bottom to top sound, I say go for something with a mid and a tweet, just make sure the tweet has an L-pad on it so you can turn it down for things that require the old school sound. Something with a mid driver certainly helps a lot when using your bass rig to power the room, may sound a little nasally, middy standing next to the rig but get used to hearing it from the audience's perspective....sounds good. If you're looking for full range sound, Accugroove is on the spendy side, maybe worth it, maybe not, they don't go as deep as they claim to but they do sound good, fitzmaurices designs are top notch but you'll have to be handy with a saw, screwgun, etc. as they are DIY plans. Check out Dr. Bass cabs, get on the phone with them and tell them what you need, they custom build for reasonable money. I'm personally liking BP-102's crossed over currently with a 6" mid. Tweeter on for modern type stuff, tweeter off for most stuff but leave the mid driver in there, helps a lot with sound out front where it counts.
     
  8. Gearhead17

    Gearhead17 Supporting Member

    May 4, 2006
    Mount Prospect, IL
    will33 - A Tweeter control of some sort is definitely needed for my tone. There are times when I use distortion and shutting the tweeter off is the only way to go.

    Unfortunately, I am stuck with Guitar Center and Samash nearby so my selection is limited. Roadtrip! That's the only way I can try something new out.
     
  9. Gearhead17

    Gearhead17 Supporting Member

    May 4, 2006
    Mount Prospect, IL
    *bump*
     
  10. MrLenny

    MrLenny

    Jun 10, 2006
    So. N.H.
    Acmes' are very inefficient. 93 SPL. They go deep but they
    do not punch. They are more of a studio reference type speaker. Just replaced my 2x10 with a Eden 2x10 XST.
    103 SPL and great mid and low mids.
     
  11. zac2944

    zac2944

    Dec 28, 2004
    Rochester, NY
    It sounds to me like your band is just too loud. Your rig is friggin huge! Two (2) ampeg 410s and 2000 watts of power. Damn. Maybe for an arena gig, but places that have no PA and stage?

    I've been in that situation many years ago playing with rock bands. Two guitars with heavy distortion can create a sonic wall that is near impossible to penetrate. Especially with those 4-12s gui****s love to rock out on. They have too much low end and leave no room for bass. Having a loud drummer only makes things worse.

    How does you rig sound to you when you play alone? Is it muddy or clear? How about your EQ? Is the GK set flat? Have you been playing with the Contour (suck) Knob?
     
  12. Gearhead17

    Gearhead17 Supporting Member

    May 4, 2006
    Mount Prospect, IL
    My rig sounds growly and only somewhat clear by itself. I can hear more detail of my bass when playing alone plus I can hear the low end better, but as soon as the band kicks on, my clarity and growl become muffled and the low mids from the cabs get obnoxious and the low end is not very clear (wasn't clear to begin with) I actually mess with my guitarists amps every time I play and they gladly turn their low end content down to nearly flat or slight boost. They use more mids and highs than lows.

    I have my cabs stacked and they are against a wall.

    The GK head has the Contour knob at "0" I think it's totally useless in a live situation.... I up the mid and treble knobs to about 6-7 and the Low mid and bass knobs are flat (5). Gain is set correctly and I have the growl at about "7". The GK head is just for my pre-amp, so I take the Direct out of it straight to the Crown.

    And yes, I do use Hearos Hi-Fidelity earplugs. Thank goodness of those things!

    I don't think it's the room, the guitarists have no problem having their low end (80-150hz) bounce every which way.....
    They don't use a lot of lows, but I can definitely hear and feel them.

    Like I said before, the Ampeg's sound like someone took my bass tone and threw a blanket over it. I can't hear the strings very clearly through this setup.

    Maybe I am nuts, but I don't know why I have to crank my rig all the way up before I am loud enough in the band. I have tried standing 15 feet away from my rig (standing next to the drummer) and my sound dissappeared - all I could hear is the growl of the GK and sometimes I would feel the bass.

    The space we play in is about 20' x 20' (all the gear is here) with a drop ceiling and thin carpet tiles. The room branches out into smaller rooms (it's a doctor's office)

    Yeah, he's a loud drummer, but he also is very good and I like playing with him. He plays bass too, so the two of us get along great.

    I think that's enough info:eyebrow: Hopefully!

    Thanks for everyone's input - you guys are my only resource
    since Guitar Center does not know the difference between Active Fender basses and Passive Fender basses, and Samash says that guitar effects don't work for bass guitar EVER. Plus, my band thinks I am a little nuts, but they respect what I know.
     
  13. zac2944

    zac2944

    Dec 28, 2004
    Rochester, NY
    Hmm. One thing that I've noticed, and I believe that others here on TB would agree, is that a tone that sounds good alone usually gets lost in a band mix. I rehearse with a Hartke head and 4-10. It sounds great on its own, but always gets lost in the mix. The bass turns to mush and has no definition. I gig with a GK1001 and a Schroeder 1212. That rig ALWAYS cuts through the mix very nicely. I've used it a my practice space with the same result. I like the way the 1212 sounds alone, but many say it is very low-mid heavy and doesn't go as deep as other cabs. Maybe that's why it cuts through?



    That sounds like a good setting on the 1001.


    It sounds like you're in a tough situation. Here's what I recommend. Use the GC 30-day return policy to test out other cabinets. In a 20'x20' room you really shouldn't need more than a good 2-12 or 4-10 and your GK1001. Try out as many different combinations as you can. If you find something that works; buy it.

    I have found that simpler is better with bass rigs. I used to have a preamp/power amp rack rig with multi cabs. I had 4-10s, 2-10s, 1-15s, and nothing has every sounded as good as the rig I'm using right now (GK-Schro 1212). I set my EQ flat for the most part, and sometime will cut the low mid on the GK a bit. It just works.
     
  14. Standalone

    Standalone

    Jan 17, 2005
    New Haven
    I think you might need to change up your thinking with EQ. Work on those mids until you get something that cuts live.

    I hate the way that my electric sounds live. But I EQ it there so that it cuts thru to the audience and is audible to my bandmates to keep them in time. Nobody in my audiences is looking for some "sick bass tone" they just want to hear it and dance. Remember, a lot of these people are content listening to music through their cell phone external speaker...!

    Sit wherever there is space and make it groove and try to convince the Guitarists to stop sitting on your frequencies.

    And why no Eden? It sounds like the XLT cabs are just the thing to cut the sonic cake that your band is concocting. And they are going pretty inexpensively used. Really-- try one. Me personally, I am gassing for an older SWR Big Ben for any eventual rock shows that I might wind up playing. You might be a 15" or 18" guy. Just a thought. They are said to project more.
     
  15. Gearhead17

    Gearhead17 Supporting Member

    May 4, 2006
    Mount Prospect, IL
    zac2944 - one Schroeder 1212 is all you use? Wow. The Ampeg's are at 97db for sensitivity and the Schroeders are at 103db or 104db - that might have something to do with it.

    A full 6 to 7 db louder at one watt per meter - this may be measured at 1khz, but you should be able to hear the increase in volume.

    When I talked to Jorg Schroeder about midrange presence in his cabs he told me there is only a slight concentration of mids and his cabs are not super midrange heavy. I have listened to his videos on his site and the cabs sound clear and very defined whether the bassist slaps or employs his fingers. I really liked the sound. I heard the string clarity of the bass come through.

    My rig does sound cool by itself, but for some reason it jsut does not work. I really don't mind if my rig sounds somewhat obnoxious by itself as long as it cuts through. I owe Schroeder a test run.

    Thanks for your time.
     
  16. zac2944

    zac2944

    Dec 28, 2004
    Rochester, NY
    5 or 6 years ago I would have though "No way", but it works. I don't read too much into that SPL mumbojumbo. Numbers are numbers, they don't make sound. It's probably all just marketing hype. When it come down to it, the 1212 is unbelieveable in a live mix. My main gig is with a 14 piece band and we play some large venues. The 1212 pumps booty. I have NEVER needed more bass with that setup, and the band is very happy with it too. But your mileage may very, everyone is looking for something differrent.

    Just start trying out different cabs. That 30-day policy at GC helps a lot.
     
  17. Gearhead17

    Gearhead17 Supporting Member

    May 4, 2006
    Mount Prospect, IL
    Eden cabs - well, I have used them a little bit, but I have not had a chance to run through my bass and power amp. I should give them a whirl.

    I tried a markbass 610 (ported version) and it sounded pretty good - unfortunately I could not do much with a 500 watt head, but it was definitely louder than the Mesa 15410 Road Ready Cab with the same head/wattage.

    18" Speakers, I would think a JBL SRX 18 of some sort would do it for me in terms of shooting low end everywhere and at a good volume. I am afraid I would muddy up the mix though, but I will have to see what happens. I would try to balance out the rig with a punchy/defined 410 with possibly a crossover hooked in there 30hz-200hz in the 18 and 200hz-15khz in the 410. That way I could mic the 410 and still get a great sound out of it while giving the PA system my Direct tone of my bass. I think this can work. Plus, I could just turn the 18 off for small stages and just use the 410, this might work.

    Any comments on my ideas?
     
  18. Johnny Crab

    Johnny Crab HELIX user & BOSE Abuser

    Feb 11, 2004
    Texas
    ACME's would work, some are here.
    The band has BOSE systems for each player which, after 6 months of trying to get a halfway decent sound out of them, I use...primarily out of convenience and to "fit" the band. They are onto something with the "flagpole" portion as it DOES toss the sound in a much less beamy manner. The ACME's blow it away on all other points(dB, clarity, less distortion, etc.).

    If ever in a situation like yours, I would SERIOUSLY consider ACME B2's under a Schroeder cab(to gain output and cut-ability). The ACME's WILL put out what you hear in very good headphones. I've used them with either a Line 6 BassPODXTLive and a SansAmp RBI->dbx166 setup.
     
  19. +1 on the Eden cabs...they are articulate and that is what your looking for. If you like 410's get an xlt and an xst. If you can find one to listen to, the 610xst is considered outrageous among Eden fans. I don't have either, but I have an Eden 210xst and a 212xlt...a beautiful combination. Maybe consider a 610xst and a 212xlt THAT would be fantastic! You would get a more balanced tonal range...
     
  20. Vinny D

    Vinny D

    Jan 9, 2007
    Warwick, RI
    If you can't be heard with 2000 watts of power and (2) 410 cabs no matter what mfg, changing to a different mfg's cab isn't going to help you much IMO.
    You need to sit down and learn how do dial in the rig that you have to get the sound that you want live, the only reason ANY cab sounds muddy is because you make it sound muddy. You need to figure out what frequencies need to be dialed out and what needs to be dialed in to get those cabs to cut through a mix.
    From how you are describing your sound it seems as if you have scooped all the mids out of your setup, this gives you a phat bottom end sound and a touch of highs. This will sound great when playing on your own (especially slap) but the second a drummer kicks in you will be done, you need to get MID bite into your setup. Dialing in mids when playing alone will make you rig sound almost nassle ish and annoying, but in a live mix it makes a bass sing.


    I would not give up on your setup (unless you really want too) I would take sometime and experiment.
     
  21. Primary

    Primary TB Assistant

    Here are some related products that TB members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to TB’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to TB discussions about these products.

     
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