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Neo replacements for an earlier B210?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Gnobility, Dec 31, 2006.


  1. Gnobility

    Gnobility

    Aug 13, 2003
    I've got a ~2-3 year old Avatar B210 cabinet (2x10"+horn) and one of the speakers is crapping out. Have any of you tried replacing the ealier (heavier) 10's with a pair of Emi Neo's?

    I emailed Avatar and they recommended replacing it with the earlier heavy Emi speaker, or buying their new Neo B210 cab. I'd rather simply go with the Neo's in my current enclosure, but wonder if Neo's are somehow incompatible with the ealier B210 enclosure.

    tia,

    Gn
     
  2. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    If you can figure out the tuning frequency of your B210, you should be able to model its response with Neos using WinISD.

    Do you have a front ported or rear ported B210?
     
  3. Gnobility

    Gnobility

    Aug 13, 2003
    It's front ported...and the external dimensions are the same as the new Neo B210.

    Gn
     
  4. tjh

    tjh Supporting Member

    Mar 22, 2006
    Minnesota
    just curious as to what the Delta is doing when you call it 'crapping out' ... ?? ... also, did you happen to ask Dave if the current x-over for the tweet would be an issue?? ... the 10" Neos Dave is using are monsters ... you may want a fresh built cab handling them rather than one that has had several years tossing around ... just a thought ...
     
  5. Gnobility

    Gnobility

    Aug 13, 2003
    When playing at high volumes one of the speakers has started giving a nasty, ragged distorted tone until notes begin to fade.

    I didn't ask Dave anything about the crossover...just asked if he'd sell me the appropriate Neo speakers so I could "upgrade" my earlier version B210. His reply was pretty short - saying I could buy replacement Emi's from online parts dealers or a new Neo B210 from Avatar.

    Gn
     
  6. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    A new Eminence Delta 10 is about $60 plus shipping from BLT Sound (http://www.bltsound.com)

    Used B210s go for about $150ish. A new B210 Neo from Avatar would run $288 ($259+$29) for carpet or $308 ($279 + $29) for tolex. I have no idea what Dave charges for a pair of Neo 10s.

    I guess you'll need to do the math and determine what your best option is... Keep in mind that the newer Avatar cabinets have a better crossover in them too...

    Is your current B210 a 4 ohm or an 8 ohm cabinet?

    For those who like to model cabinet designs...the tuning for the B210 Delta might be in the 55 to 65 Hz range. Try modeling the response with a pair of Deltalite 10s (I have no idea if Dave's extended Xmax versions have the same Thiele-Small parameters or not...).

    Retuning the box shouldn't be that hard...
     
  7. Gnobility

    Gnobility

    Aug 13, 2003
    My B210 is an 8 ohm.

    I don't know beans about retuning cabs - what is the downside to just putting Neo's in the existing holes?

    Gn
     
  8. Most cabs use front loaded drivers, and the Avatar is no exception. Download the Eminence data sheets for the Neo and the current installed driver, and MAKE SURE the hole cutout dimensions are the same. It is pointless buying new drivers if they don't properly fit.

    Next, remove a driver and take accurate measurements of the cab inside. Subtract the volume occupied by the vent, and this is the net internal volume. Divide that in two, and the final volume is that available to each driver. You can use my spread sheet or WinISD to see if a Neo is a reasonable match.
     
  9. joegeezer

    joegeezer

    Mar 9, 2005
    Northern Wisconsin
    Avatar Club#12 Eden Club Lucky# 13--USA Peavey Club#37 Carvin Club#5
    Avatar is still using all the same stuff for that cab I'll bet. I'm sure the NEO's will work just fine. http://www.bltsound.com/
    88.00 a piece here.
     
  10. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    I think the Neo cabs are tuned a bit lower.
     
  11. Gnobility

    Gnobility

    Aug 13, 2003
    Well, the external dimensions of the current & oearlier are identical, but I suspect there is some difference inside because Dave advised the standard speakers as a replacement rather than just swapping in Neo's.

    If there is a difference in 'tuning', what ill effects could I see with the Neo's? (I play 4 string only, at pretty moderate volumes most of the time). For our rare, somewhat louder gigs I take my Avatar 15+horn cab also.

    Gn
     
  12. BillyB_from_LZ

    BillyB_from_LZ Supporting Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    Chicago
    I just played around with ISD Online (http://www.linearteam.dk)

    The drivers (data taken from www.eminence.com):

    Delta 10B Fs = 65 Hz, Vas = 1.27 cu. ft., Qts = 0.33 (baffle opening 9.05 in.)

    Deltalite 2510: Fs = 53 Hz, Vas = 1.9 cu. ft., Qts = 0.42 (baffle opening 9.15 in.) Again, Avatar's 10 in. Neo is an extended Xmax version of this driver. I don't have a clue how that would affect the Thiele-Small parameters.

    The cabinet:

    Avatar B210: Outside dimensions 18 by 24.5 by 16.5 in. I'm guessing that the port is 2 in. tall and the shelf is 3 in. deep. The box is built from 3/4 in. plywood and the baffle is set back 1 in.

    Doing the math, I come up with a box volume of essentially 3 cu. ft. I didn't subtract any volume for drivers or crossover.

    While this may not be exact, it's probably close enough to play with the numbers and at least see the difference in the response curves.

    Using tuning frequencies of 55 and 65 Hz, the Delta 10s look flatter with a 65 Hz box tuning. On the other hand, the Deltalite (Neo) has a 3 dB hump at 80 Hz in a 55 Hz box and looks pretty flat in a 65 Hz box with a -3 dB response at 60 Hz (a little better than the Delta 10s).

    ISD Online doesn't offer the group delay numbers so I'm not sure about that.

    I suspect that I'm overlooking something, but it would seem that the Neos would agree with the front ported B210 Delta box well enough (assuming that the 0.1 in. diameter difference doesn't cause problems...but that's easy to fix).
     
  13. Gnobility

    Gnobility

    Aug 13, 2003
    Thanks a ton, BillyB...I'll give the Neo's a try!

    Gn
     
  14. tallboybass

    tallboybass Supporting Member

    Feb 25, 2003
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
    Let us know how it works out!
     

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