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Newbie Criticism of the TB Technique Forum

Discussion in 'Jazz Technique [DB]' started by Chris Fitzgerald, Aug 18, 2002.


  1. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    I know a few sax players who come to mind when this question is broached...


    EDIT: This thread has been split off from the "Newbies - you DO need a Teacher" thread.
     
  2. ljazz

    ljazz

    Dec 10, 2002
    Cookeville, TN
    I'm gonna run right out and sell my bass.... 'cuz I just don't have the time or resources to head out to a teacher regularly!:(

    The "you need a teacher" thing is absolute crap.

    Should you have teacher?..... it wouldn't hurt, and you should find one as soon as you're able.

    Should you not play if you don't have a teacher?.... by all means, you should try to play, and do what you can on your own, until you are able to afford the resources necessary to take lessons.

    This is a dangerous thread.

    This forum is probably the first one I've ever seen, on any subject, that is so damned snobish, yet doesn't give anymore advice than "get a teacher."

    This is the information age people...... this forum should be a place where players, pro or student, comes to learn..... technique, ergonomics, and everything else. If it doesn't do that, then it is no more than a social club for the uptight on the upright. If anything, this should be a place where one should come to get information on technique, hence it being the technique forum...... hell, if you're not going to be helpful when it comes to technique, then atleast put up a listing of qualified teachers!
     
  3. Sam Sherry

    Sam Sherry Inadvertent Microtonalist Supporting Member

    Sep 26, 2001
    Portland, ME
    Euphonic Audio "Player"
    Pardon me for getting cranky, but answer me this: What are you trying to accomplish by not working with a teacher?

    a) "I'm trying to save money." For the cost of five to ten sandwiches you could take a lesson a month.

    b) "I don't live near a teacher." There certainly are people on this board who don't live within four hours of another jazz player, orchestra, or college. For everyone else, it's simply a choice not to make the trek once a month, by car, bus, friend or whatever.

    c) "I want my music to remain pure to my own vision." Fine; study technique. You don't have to study with someone who's out to impose his or her musical will on you.

    d) "I just want to have fun and I don't care if I improve." Good answer. Go have fun. Don't hurt yourself. Take lessons if you change your mind.

    The bottom line is that someone else already invented the wheel. Most of us don't take lessons forever. The wheel lasts a long time!
     
  4. thrash_jazz

    thrash_jazz

    Jan 11, 2002
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Artist: JAF Basses, Circle K Strings
    The "you need a teacher" thing is absolute crap.

    Well, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm relatively new to DB, and if you've gone places without having a teacher, kudos to you. I never said you couldn't get anywhere without one - I just was saying that, from MY experience, it'll take a hell of a lot longer.


    This is a dangerous thread.

    Well, once again, you're entitled to your opinion, but coming in here and being so antagonistic with your first post is probably not going to have a lot of people listening.
     
  5. ljazz

    ljazz

    Dec 10, 2002
    Cookeville, TN
    My point is simply this.....

    You should not let not having a teacher keep you from playing. If we were to wait until we had teachers for everything we do, then think of how far behind we'd be. Discouragement will not help our "cause" as bassists.

    Times have changed, and the all night "jam" sessions that forged the technique of some of the greatest musicians are all but a thing of the past. It's just not feasible to do that in this day and age. Instead we depend on things like "Band in a Box", videos, play-alongs, and, to a very under-utilized degree, this forum.

    As a newbie, wouldn't you love it some of the better players in this forum were a bit more informative and helpful? I've been browsing this forum for a while now, and I keep seeing the same folks enter a thread, get sidetracked by one or two misunderstood comments, and all but start a flame war.

    Is this the technique or ego (i have so much technique that I can be a prick) forum?

    I've seen one useful thread in this forum.... Ray Parker's fingering thread. There needs to be more threads like that. Without out those types of things, this whole forum is a waste of server space.
     
  6. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY

    I'll be honest with you here - you've posted exactly TWICE as of the time of this post, and both of your posts have been extremely critical of this forum and the people who participate in it. If you want to discuss some things pertaining to the bass or this forum in a rational manner, then please do so. But if your intent is to simply walk in the door and flame all of the regular participants of this board, you will be treated as a troll, and rightly so. Please make up your mind, and don't be too long about it...this is a very busy time of year, and I don't have time to be dealing with stupid **** like this at the moment.

    I'm sorry you don't seem to appreciate all the work that so many people have put in to make this board a great resource for double bassists around the world. But if you truly think the board is a waste of bandwidth, just remember that the door you came in through swings both ways.
     
  7. thrash_jazz

    thrash_jazz

    Jan 11, 2002
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Artist: JAF Basses, Circle K Strings
    I see what you mean, but my goal in starting this thread was to say that learning DB is not the same as learning BG in that self-teaching can have more unfortunate results. I believe that I've learned more from my teacher than I possibly could have on my own. On BG I was self-taught for, essentially, the first six or seven years, so I CAN make that comparison.

    Without trying to be a prick - in all seriousness - don't you think it better to have someone there, on the spot, who can correct your errors, instead of you learning a method that could potentially injure you? Books and videos are great learning tools as well, but that is one thing they will never be able to do.

    As for this forum, the same thing applies - there are loads of players here whose doors I would beat down to get them to teach me if I lived in the same town, but how can they teach me online if they don't know what I can and cannot do?

    Actually, I have found many people on this forum to be very helpful - with things that they are realistically able to help me with.
     
  8. ljazz

    ljazz

    Dec 10, 2002
    Cookeville, TN
    And if there wasn't anything to say, then I wouldn't say it.

    If you're talking about wasting time, then why are all the non-technique posts on the technique forum tolerated?

    BTW, I did not flame anyone. I only stated my opinion, just as everyone else has on this thread, so don't make me out to be a "troll". As far as wasting your time at this busy point in the year.... well, sorry, but I didn't ask for your opinion, appreciated or not. I've followed a lot of your posts on the board, so please don't ruin the respect I've gained for your knowledge and insight by jumping to a conclusion regarding my opinion.

    I did not say the board was a waste...... I said the technique forum is.... and what I meant was simply that it could be serving bassist much better, with no additional effort from the mods or administration. You're right, the board takes a lot of work, and I certainly appreciate many of the things I've read. And a forum, or entire board for that matter, is a product of the people that are posting. Please, don't get me wrong, the board, in general, is excellent. Infact, I love damn near the whole site and I'll be "upgrading" my membership to supporting member in the near future.

    I'd be willing to bet that every newbie, intermediate, or even advanced players would appreciate a little more technique in the technique forum. If this is a technique forum, then damn it, lets see some techniques! (or should I get a teacher?)
     
  9. ljazz

    ljazz

    Dec 10, 2002
    Cookeville, TN

    I agree, it is better to have a teacher.....I never refuted that. But the title of this thread is "To Fellow Newbies: You Do need a teacher." And most here agreed with that statememt. What I'm saying is that yes, a teacher is the best way to go, but until you can afford the means of obtaining a teacher, you should not be discouraged from waiting to play until you can. Furthermore, a little more technique in the technique forum would be appreciated, don't you think?
     
  10. tsolo

    tsolo

    Aug 24, 2002
    Ft. Worth
    Damn, sure glad I didn't make y'all mad. Ed, whatcha got against bluegrass?:)
     
  11. thrash_jazz

    thrash_jazz

    Jan 11, 2002
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Artist: JAF Basses, Circle K Strings
    Good heavens no! I didn't mean to imply that one shouldn't play unless they have a teacher... but my opinion (and those of most others here, I think) is that if it is all possible, getting one is by far the best option. And I stated my reasons for this at the beginning of the thread. Nowhere did I say "Don't play AT ALL unless you are taking lessons".

    If one can afford to drop a couple grand on a DB, I'm sure a few bucks here and there for a lesson isn't too ridiculous an idea for most people.

    I confess I don't understand what you mean by "more technique in the technique forum". Every question that has been asked has been answered... wherever possible...
     
  12. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY

    Of course, instead of bitching and moaning about what isn't here yet, and insinuating that we (the regular members of this forum) have somehow been neglecting our duties by not filling up the Technique forum with insightful information on our own free time, you could also try submitting useful information to remedy the deficiencies that you are so quick to point out. But it seems that you find bitching and moaning the easier road to take so far. Why is this?
     
  13. ljazz

    ljazz

    Dec 10, 2002
    Cookeville, TN

    Hey guys, you're only proving the "snob" factor I mentioned earlier. A flame is a direct personal attack..... I didn't attack thrash_jazz in a personal way (or anyone else for that matter). Calling names is flaming, which I have not resorted to. Thrash_jazz even went on to say that he knew what I meant.

    I said the thread was crap because there were remarks about self-education, and that a teacher is necessary (perhaps I'm over summarizing here, but most of the posts communicated that). I'm sorry, but a teacher is only a supplement to you being able to understand material, learn it, and then apply it. How many hours a week do you spend in lessons?..... And the rest of the week you do nothing new? I think not. If you're not able to self - educate, then you're going to get nowhere.

    It just seems to me that a lot of the folks here that say "find a teacher" might have a lot more to add then just that.

    Granted, I've only posted twice, but isn't it all that much more reason for concern when somebody new to the board see's room for improvement? Hell, I could be Rufus Reid or Christian McBride, or anyone famous...... a lot of good that would do the board. Or, I could just be a new guy that would enjoy seeing some content in the technique section..... do I have to be a member for a certain amount of time before I can critique? (I don't recall seeing that in the rules.)

    Samual, if a troll is someone who can state his or her opinion without treating someone like an a$$hole, then I guess I'm a troll. (what would that make you?)
     
  14. ljazz

    ljazz

    Dec 10, 2002
    Cookeville, TN
    Like I said, I've really had nothing to say. "Bitching and moaning?"...... sorry man, but if that's the way it comes across, then you've missed the point. An intelligent arguement against what I've pointed out would have been to point me to some of the more technically "rich" threads in the forum. Instead, I'm being attacked. That's okay though.

    What if I was a yougster who had no cash, found an old bass in my grandfathers house, and wanted to play? Well, I'd go to the Talkbass forums and check out the newbie thread, that starts off with "To Fellow DB Newbies: You Do need a teacher!!!" Should I be discouraged????? Probably.

    Do you know how to work on your car?.... can you put in a new clutch?...... you don't have the cash to get it fixed, so you go to the Fix your Car.com board, and there you find the Replace your Clutch forum. But you get there and the only thing you see is "Hire a mechanic."
    Discouraging, right?
     
  15. ljazz

    ljazz

    Dec 10, 2002
    Cookeville, TN
    Again, missing the point. First, if someone felt they couldn't start playing because they don't have a teacher, then I doubt they would tell the world they're going to give up. There are countless more people who don't play than do..... maybe what's missing is the information on how to start.

    I never said, "you don't need a teacher!" By all means, everyone could use a teacher. My question is this: Why aren't basic techniques to get the newbie started included? Wouldn't threads showing the newbie how to get going be of more use than what's out there now?

    To everyone ripping me, thanks for not arguing the points and attacking me personally instead. I never asked for anyone to agree with me. Of course, I didn't ask to be called a troll or tonto either.

    My background..... well, I started DB when I was in high school (too many years ago...and I did take lessons). Since then, a lot of things have happened. I pretty much all but abandoned the DB, as I was getting gigs on BG (live performance, and some jingle work). Then life really took over, and I found myself lost in the corporate world. I've since found a bit of time, and gumption, to start playing again. I've been back at it for about a year now, and would love to take lessons, but, being a manager with a large corporation doesn't always allow for the time required....especially when you're taking classes and doing the family thing. I stumbled across this site several months ago, and have browsed as I find time. This thread had peaked my attention, but I've just been too busy to reply sooner. (I should also mention that I taught the BG and guitar for several years)

    Guys, honestly, this thread puts out a bad message. Instead of telling people "you do need a teacher", try saying, "you really do need a teacher, but until then, here are some things you can do to get started." If that's not an option, then you're obviously above all of that and should not lower yourself.

    y por favor, mi nombre no es tonto (que mamon eres)
     
  16. ljazz

    ljazz

    Dec 10, 2002
    Cookeville, TN
    How about a lesson of the week forum.... or even a thread. I know a lot of you earn money from teaching, but, what about putting something out there that would supplement lessons, or even keep someone going until they were able to get a teacher? Hell, that would eliminate alot of the questions out there. Then if someone had a question, or other suggestion to the thread, they could start a new discussion.

    Now that would a lot more helpful than what's out there. Ray Parker's thread, again, is much more technically rich. Why don't some of you more experienced cats put stuff out there like that? Hell, what better advertising for new students could there be? AHHHH of course.....that's it! We need teachers because you don't want to do this for free!!! ( I know that's not the answer. I think all of you more experienced players realize the benefit in helping new players get started in the correct fashion).......

    How about it???
    How many newbies out there would like to see these experienced guys do a lesson of the week type of thing?
     
  17. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    I'm closing this one for routine maintenance for a little bit. It'll be back up when I have time to deal with it.
     
  18. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY

    I'm strongly considering splitting this thread into a seperate thread entitled, " How NOT to make your first posts at Talkbass". Let's see, if we take these comments, which are listed in order of appearance, and juggle them a bit, we get....
     
  19. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    Okay, let's start with the whole "Flamebait/Troll" issue.


    I don't know where you got your definition of what a "Troll" is or what officially designates "Flaming" in your own little personal world, but either way, we have our own definitions of these things here at this forum. A "Troll" is a poster whose intent seems to be to create trouble and stir up people's emotions by either:

    * Posting a load of abject bull**** as it it were fact;

    * Flaming or "stalking" an individual member of a forum such as this one;

    * Flaming the entire forum by insulting the views of the group as a whole. This is what you have done here.

    These types of postings are designed with one thing in mind - to stir up a big fuss and then sit back and watch the wreckage. Whether or not this is what you had INTENDED to do, this is in fact what you ACTUALLY ACCOMPLISHED by posting what you did.

    Imagine this scenario: a total stranger walks into a neighborhood bar and finds 10-12 regulars sitting around a table shooting the **** and having a beer. Overhearing some of their conversation, the first things out of his mouth are, "Your collective opinion is absolute crap", and "You guys are a bunch of snobs".....etc. Now what do you suppose is gonna happen to this guy? In my opinion, this guy deserves whatever he gets, because he can't seem to get it through his thick head that no matter what he thinks his intentions were, his actions are really screaming, "for reasons I can't really explain, I'd really like to get my ass kicked hard right about now. C'mon guys, whaddaya say? Can ya help out a brother in need?"

    If you can't see that walking into this forum and posting what you've posted in your first several posts is similar to the bar situation I just described, I'm afraid I can't help you. But in light of this analogy, I'd say you got off pretty easy in this thread.
     
  20. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY

    Please allow me to clue you in about how this BBS works: Paul, who owns the server and works to keep the site running, opened this site out of the goodness of his heart so that people could talk about Basses, Bassplaying, and subjects related to both. Gradually, a few people started to find out about the site and commenced to talking about bass related stuff. Over time, more people began to filter in and there was more discussion. That's what the site was and is supposed to be about. And it's working fine.

    But AT NO TIME did anybody ever sign an agreement saying, "I, (state your name), take full responsibility for the education of a bunch of internet strangers I have never met as regards music theory, bass instruction, bass technique, etc.... In addition, I am willing to give up my free time out of my regular life to create documents regarding the education of double bass newbies whom I have not even met or previously knew existed. I'm agreeing to do this because I want to go way out of my way to please some anonymous dude who doesn't like the state of the Technique forum here at TB and seems to have plenty of time and energy to bitch about the state it's in, but who can't even be bothered to fill out his own profile. The reason I'm giving up large chunks of my free time to do this is.....

    ...uh......


    ...heh heh.....




    See, this is where this whole concept breaks down, dig?


    What information there is here at TB is submitted by people as they see fit, and in whatever time they have to submit it. No one has a RESPONSIBILITY to post their insights on any given subject, but given the right discussion at the right time, useful information gets put out there from time to time. At this point, every once in a while I scour the last 3 or 4 months of threads and collect some new links for the "Newbie Links" threads that I made so that information would be easier for newbies to find. You think anyone here is getting PAID to post, or for that matter to do anything here? It's all volunteer work here at TB. Perhaps you should try to appreciate the things that ARE here rather than lamenting the things that aren't here yet.

    I don't know how to put it in any simpler terms than that. If that doesn't get the point across, then I give up.