News Flash. GM to make all its Cars, SUV's and Trucks electric in just 14 years. (2035)

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by Stewie26, Apr 22, 2021.


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  1. bholder

    bholder Affable Sociopath Supporting Member

    Sep 2, 2001
    Vestal, NY
    Received a gift from Sire* (see sig)
    Hydrogen doesn't exist in a usable form on Earth's surface. You spend more energy converting it into usable Hydrogen than you can get out of it (Laws of Thermodynamics). It's simply a losing proposition.
     
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  2. Jeff Scott

    Jeff Scott Rickenbacker guru..........

    Apr 11, 2006
     
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  3. bluesblaster

    bluesblaster

    Jan 2, 2008
    you dont exactly put a shovel of dirt containing lithium in a box and hook up a pair of jumper cables to it either. I guess time will tell if Hydrogen is a losing proposition.
     
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  4. bholder

    bholder Affable Sociopath Supporting Member

    Sep 2, 2001
    Vestal, NY
    Received a gift from Sire* (see sig)
    Physics has already ruled on the subject, the story's over. Lithium isn't all that rare, actually, and is nearly completely reusable. When you burn hydrogen, you're starting over from scratch - once more have to put more energy into it than you can get out of it. Read up on the laws of thermodynamics.
     
  5. ficelles

    ficelles

    Feb 28, 2010
    Devon, England
    What you are saying makes me wonder why anyone is bothering with it... but they are: Hydrogen fuel - Wikipedia
     
  6. bholder

    bholder Affable Sociopath Supporting Member

    Sep 2, 2001
    Vestal, NY
    Received a gift from Sire* (see sig)
    Mostly funded by fossil fuel interests in an attempt to "greenwash" their poisons.
     
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  7. bluesblaster

    bluesblaster

    Jan 2, 2008
    Your mind is obviously made up.
     
  8. bholder

    bholder Affable Sociopath Supporting Member

    Sep 2, 2001
    Vestal, NY
    Received a gift from Sire* (see sig)
    I follow the science, so yeah. I didn't decide, science did.
     
  9. JKos

    JKos Supporting Member

    Oct 26, 2010
    Torrance, CA
    It is fairly simple science that it takes more energy to create hydrogen in a form useable for fuel then you can get out of it. There is no other way around it. It's where that "input energy" comes from that becomes rather important.
     
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  10. Tosh

    Tosh

    Jul 12, 2020
    Salem, Oregon
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  11. ficelles

    ficelles

    Feb 28, 2010
    Devon, England
    I'm going to keep saying that the sun is a huge free clean and safe nuclear fusion reactor :) Totally down with the orbiting solar panels idea, especially with huge orbiting batteries (my idea so when Elon Musk does it remember I thought of it first)....

    And when someone works out how to tap into dark matter energy it will be obvious that there is no need for us to generate any energy at all. Dark energy power converters will be in everything and it probably won't be anything like Event Horizon.
     
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  12. Tosh

    Tosh

    Jul 12, 2020
    Salem, Oregon
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  13. hbarcat

    hbarcat Supporting Member

    Aug 24, 2006
    Rochelle, Illinois
    Hydrogen fuel can never be more than a niche market because of the fact that it takes more energy to produce than the amount of energy it contains as a fuel. The laws of physics have spoken.

    The most likely market would be heavy duty city and suburban vehicles like busses and trains for public transportation, or trucks for commercial freight. This is also the prime market for battery powered EVs, so hydrogen will definitely have an uphill battle.
     
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  14. ficelles

    ficelles

    Feb 28, 2010
    Devon, England
    Which may be exactly the point... if hydrogen fuel is a convenient, clean and safe form of energy then if the additional energy to create that fuel supply is free - like from the sun - then the energy production negative efficiency doesn't actually matter.
     
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  15. Tosh

    Tosh

    Jul 12, 2020
    Salem, Oregon
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  16. fdeck

    fdeck Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 20, 2004
    Madison WI
    HPF Technology LLC
    In my view, the way to think of hydrogen is as an energy storage or transport medium, rather than as a source of energy. The cheapest and only practical way to make hydrogen today is by converting petroleum into hydrogen plus carbon dioxide by a chemical process. If the hydrogen then ends up getting burned as fuel, then it completes the "combustion" cycle of converting petroleum into carbon dioxide and water.

    Other processes already use hydrogen produced in this way. For instance, it is combined with nitrogen from the atmosphere to produce ammonia, which is used as fertilizer. More than half of the earth's animal population is sustained by this process. Again, if you look at the process from end to end, you're converting petroleum and nitrogen into ammonia and carbon dioxide. In this case, it's not an energy source but our food source.

    (I'm not talking about how the petroleum was originally formed of course).

    If we could produce hydrogen by electrolysis of water using non-carbon energy sources such as hydro, solar, or nuclear, then it would still be an energy storage medium, but without the present day carbon footprint. That remains a dream, but one worth hoping for.

    Now, batteries are also an energy storage medium. The lithium is not consumed. A case could be made for hydrogen if it's a better energy storage medium. A problem with batteries right now is the time to recharge them requires us to change our habits about how we use transportation. Hydrogen, if it could be safely handled at the "gas" station (literally), would allow for much faster refueling, maybe. And more impressive explosions.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
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  17. ficelles

    ficelles

    Feb 28, 2010
    Devon, England
    Infrastructures can change though, with enough incentive...
     
  18. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Supporting Member

    There's an interesting point about this. If we are to have a universally helpful and accessible network of chargers, there must be ONE standard. Tesla and Nissan together will be a single digit percentage of the total number of EVs when all manufacturers adopt that Standard, so they and others who don't conform to "The Standard" charging connection will need to either change their connection or provide adapters to it. In addition, the adapters better charge as fast as the proprietary connectors do, or it will be a considerable market disadvantage.
     
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  19. fdeck

    fdeck Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 20, 2004
    Madison WI
    HPF Technology LLC
    Basically, hydrogen power has two hurdles: Carbon footprint and infrastructure. You have to be on a trajectory to solve both before either is worth solving. Also, a lot of hydrogen advocacy predates recent progress in lithium battery technology, so it has to be re-thunk. ;)
     
  20. buldog5151bass

    buldog5151bass Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.

    Oct 22, 2003
    Connecticut
    You're a Mariner fan, and are sure they will win the World Series.


    'nuff said.
     
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  21. Primary

    Primary TB Assistant

    Here are some related products that TB members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to TB’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to TB discussions about these products.

     
    Jun 13, 2021

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