News Flash. GM to make all its Cars, SUV's and Trucks electric in just 14 years. (2035)

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by Stewie26, Apr 22, 2021.


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  1. ajkula66

    ajkula66

    Sep 23, 2016
    NEPA/RS
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  2. ficelles

    ficelles

    Feb 28, 2010
    Devon, England
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  3. ajkula66

    ajkula66

    Sep 23, 2016
    NEPA/RS
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  4. Jeff Scott

    Jeff Scott Rickenbacker guru.......... Suspended

    Agreed!
     
  5. ficelles

    ficelles

    Feb 28, 2010
    Devon, England
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  6. TheAnalogKid

    TheAnalogKid Yer Doin' GREAT!!!!

    Dec 7, 2011

    Gub'mint Motors sandbagged themselves when they killed the EV-1 concept car before it had a chance at larger-scale production, back in the late 1990s. They can all whiz up a rope for all I care.
     
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  7. equill

    equill

    Nov 25, 2010
    Madrid
    About that profit thing. Digging back to my student days, I worked in a gas station in the '90s: the owner/proprietor made about one cent per litre of petrol in profit, and it seems unlikely the distributors have gotten any more generous since then. Where he made a profit he could actually spend, was in the convenience-store stuff that we sold from the shelves. More recently, I've spent more on meals than on petrol in those places - outside of cities, most of them in NL and DE have restaurant space in the store, and the bigger ones on highways have entire restaurants attached.
    EV charging stations can adopt the same business model (and I gather they have) but with more confidence about making a profit. Charging time is actually a feature for the operators, because it just makes sense to have a meal while you're waiting for your car to fill up.

    Unavailability might be an issue in the USA, but charging stations are spreading all over this continent.
    Limited range? About 300Km for the one I pick up next week, which is roughly the same as my touring bike. That'd be the bike I've repeatedly ridden from Amsterdam to Hanover, and to Leipzig. Sure, that's about half the range of the petrol-burning equivalent that I'm renting at the moment, but I prefer to take a break and refresh my mind after 2-3 hours' driving anyway.
    Can I imagine taking a long trip? We're seriously thinking about driving to those cities from Madrid instead of riding there, mostly because we can carry more clothes in the car than on the bike. Long enough for you?

    There's a world outside of the USA, and we're not waiting for you to catch up :)
     
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  8. ficelles

    ficelles

    Feb 28, 2010
    Devon, England
    Interesting statistic - the UK has half as many EVs as the US but 20% of the population (we are second highest takeup of EVs in Europe after Norway). Of course we don't have the huge distances to cover like in the US. I think the average range of an EV is around 250 miles, which coincidentally is the same as a 4 litre Cherokee.
     
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  9. buldog5151bass

    buldog5151bass Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.

    Oct 22, 2003
    Connecticut
    This is not a US v. the world, but simple mathematics. Stations don't make a lot directly on gas, but it brings in hundreds/thousands of customers a day, who fill their tanks in about a minute, then become potential $$$ for more profitable items. Same reason the supermarket sells milk at cost to sell you the rest of your food at larger profit margins.

    1. The best (extremely expensive) chargers charge to 89% in 30 minutes, with the final 20% taking much longer.
    2. The market (number of owners) is much smaller.

    For the foreseeable future, almost all charging is an overnight option.

    3. EVs have a limited range - putting you back at square one. That means other than basic commuter vehicle, they are not practical. If you have to drive further daily than your car's range, you are screwed.

    4. As has been pointed out by other, the energy to make that electricity is neither free nor primarily clean. Same with battery disposal.

    The fact remains - unless governments continue to make massive investments, EVs are neither practical nor cost effective. I won't comment further per site rules.

    Yes, EVs will continue to be one option. But they are NOT the magic panacea people make them out to be.

    For the majority of car owners, a well made ICE is, and for a good long time will continue to be, a cheaper, cleaner, and more versatile option. That may change, but not in 14 years.
     
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  10. Jeff Scott

    Jeff Scott Rickenbacker guru.......... Suspended

    How long does it take to fully charge an EV compared to the time it takes to fill a gas tank?

    I see that has been partially answered, below:
     
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  11. JKos

    JKos Supporting Member

    Oct 26, 2010
    Torrance, CA
    How many miles does the average car owner drive a day? Asked a better way (I think), for what percentage of drivers could a nominal range EV meet their daily needs? I suspect it is a quite large percent.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
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  12. ficelles

    ficelles

    Feb 28, 2010
    Devon, England
    That is the weakness of EVs... but for most UK drivers not an issue as we don't cover the same distances as US drivers so overnight recharge is fine. I'm sticking with my Jeep though.
     
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  13. Jeff Scott

    Jeff Scott Rickenbacker guru.......... Suspended

    That's my feelings, too, regarding the charging time issue, at the moment. Long distance driving puts a real crimp in EVs due to that, IMO.

    As to Jeeps, a friend of mine has a mid '80s Cherokee that he keeps rebuilding as he doesn't like "modern" Cherokees. The new ones won't take his custom made ladder and platform he has on his old one. I have used that platform for photographing from when I needed/wanted a higher viewpoint.
     
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  14. ficelles

    ficelles

    Feb 28, 2010
    Devon, England
    My current Cherokee is a '99, previous one was '94... I also prefer the older ones. Probably the last generation of user-maintainable vehicles.
     
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  15. Tosh

    Tosh

    Jul 12, 2020
    Salem, Oregon
    Well, my Jeep is going down into the ground with me (minus the engine, fuel tank, and other environmentally harmful components)

    The opposite of Starman
     
  16. I don't think ICE vehicles will go the way of the dead dinosaurs that power them anytime soon.

    There's a huge segment of the driving population that can't afford or qualify to finance anything like a new Tesla or comparable electric vehicle. Lots of people still cruise around in old, high mileage cars because that's all they can afford to buy.
     
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  17. gln1955

    gln1955 Supporting Member

    Aug 25, 2014
    Ohio, USA
    Assuming things in the EV realm will progress at the same rate in the next fourteen years as they they have in the previous fourteen is very narrow-minded. Sure, EVs are a niche now and certainly do not meet the needs of many, myself included. I fully expect that to turn around in the not too distant future and ICE's will be the niche in the new car market. ICEs will be with us for a long time in other applications off the grid such as construction, mining and agriculture.
     
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  18. buldog5151bass

    buldog5151bass Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.

    Oct 22, 2003
    Connecticut
    Sorry, typo. That's 80%.

    Again, they work fine for many commutes, but a lot of people regularly need more daily range, never mind truck and buses. Also, they are useless for longer trips.

    I also want to know what the cost is for a home overnight charger, and the cost in electricity. How much more am I paying per day in my electric bill?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
  19. Anthony Buckeridge

    Anthony Buckeridge

    Nov 15, 2014
    I have a particular take on this subject, forgive the long post but it’s a subject I am somewhat familiar with.

    It’s not a personal view but rather based upon knowledge of the automotive industry through my many long standing relationships at a high level within it.

    Some years back, the German car industry acted in unison, commissioning top independent scientists to research, what fuel should power vehicles of the future?

    A concomitant part of this research was involved in determining what type of power unit would be the optimal for the eventual replacement of the internal combustion engine, which the entire automotive industry should ideally adopt.


    I trust everyone can see that these two fundamental elements have an entirely natural symbiotic relationship?


    After some years of research, they published a scientific paper for the entire German Automotive Industry, which clearly highlighted Hydrogen Power as being the optimal replacement for both fuel and power unit (engine).

    Top German manufacturers lost no time in investing heavily in research and development, creating vehicles that (although it is not as simple as this), essentially are ultimately powered by the sun and all that comes out of the exhaust pipe is water vapour.

    Particular manufacturers gradually refined their preproduction prototypes to the degree that the exhaust vapour in water form is actually clean and healthy enough to drink. Certain manufacturers have already developed at least seven generations of Hydrogen Power vehicles, that I am aware of.

    These Hydrogen Powered vehicles are equal in driving experience, dynamic handling and passenger comfort to all top of line, executive level vehicles, currently available in their brand’s model ranges. Far surpassing the extremist demands of the most ardent eco warrior on the planet, fully addressing safety issues regarding fuel type, fuel tanks and refuelling.


    Consider this.

    Utilising such vehicles, there is no restriction on the range of mileage, compared to vehicles using internal combustion engines.

    They are refuelled in a similar manner to petrol and diesel vehicles, literally in minutes, using a feed pipe to the filler receptacle in the vehicle.

    The entire national fundamentally essential infrastructure of every country is already existent and is in daily use. It simply requires replacing underground petrol and diesel tanks and the above ground stations, with new Hydrogen Units. After so many years these tanks are routinely replaced anyway.

    Therefore, this could be rolled out gradually, enabling refilling stations to service hydrogen, petrol and diesel powered vehicles, facilitating steady, gradual, evolutionary movement towards sensible, economical replacement of the entire consumer and professional vehicle fleet. To take place over a planned number of years without a downside to users who eventually replace their vehicles anyway.


    Suddenly, national leaders of all persuasions. Knee jerk reacting to extreme environmental activism. Overnight demanded all vehicle manufacturers produce X number of zero emission vehicles within two years (in the UK and elsewhere).

    The resulting effect was that manufacturers abandoned their scientifically researched programmes of vehicle development and quickly produced electric and hybrid petrol/diesel/electric vehicles to meet the enforced legislation which had been unceremoniously hoisted upon them, without due notice.

    Sometimes in life, getting what we want is not always the best thing for us, and with all due respect to those overwhelmingly concerned with environmental matters; its fair to reflect that I for one, feel this is a clear instance where well intentioned pressure has led national leaders to force entire industries up what is essentially a blind alley, establishing what is a band aid on the real problem.

    The difficulties of introducing electric vehicles have simply not been faced up to by anyone. As few people have electric vehicles, the impact of nations of millions of consumers as well as all professional fleets, hooking up their vehicles to the national grid have not been addressed. We already have a power problem coping with demands on national grids across the globe. How many extra power stations will be required simply for everyone to be able to plug in at home? Plug in at work?


    Who will pay for all these extra power stations that will eventually be required?


    Refilling stations will require complete transformation for the long periods it will take to recharge vehicles and streets and workplaces require revolutionary development to provide powering points here, there and everywhere.


    Who will pay for all this extra infrastructure, to enable people to make anything other than relatively short trips.


    Electric cars can derive power from capacitors (Elon Musk is working hard on that development) or batteries, or a combination of both. Chiefly, manufacturers are concentrating on developing battery technology.

    Battery technology for electric vehicles, is highly dependent upon the use of Lithium. This particular element is not easily or readily available in any great quantities, such as would be required if motoring consumers on mass went electric.

    In fact, despite investment, such is the difficulty and limitations on mining lithium, it is the case that by the year 2027 a worldwide shortage of the material is forecast against projected timing of the strongest demand imaginable. Those of us who have the benefit of lived a while will understand, that when there is great demand for a commodity that is in short supply, the price goes up astronomically.


    From my point of view, if the deeply environmentally concerned had simply left the automotive manufacturers, (the best of which are deeply concerned about the environment and have excellent green credentials and have been quietly working towards genuinely green goals), to pursue their scientifically researched and advised, development of prototypes, we would have the best possible outcome for consumers all over the world.

    It’s a global problem and requires a united global response from manufacturers acting in cooperation for the optimal result. The best/top manufacturers are already acting in this way. Free from outside interference, better still, national leaders that legislated in line with the actual scientific research would help an awful lot, to move us in the right (optimal) direction.


    Electric vehicles (some of which are capable of high acceleration and performance in specific areas) are thus, simply a stop gap, and will later have to be replaced with a better, far more optimal solution.

    Similarly, hybrid electric vehicles, featuring a combination of electric drive with small petrol drive or electric drive with diesel drive are even more of a stop gap. As these vehicles emit CO2 in a manner akin to petrol and diesel vehicles, there is already strongly building pressure to ban such vehicles.


    Most people see a vehicle as a large investment of their hard earnt money. They can’t afford to waste it.

    The optimal solutions already exist have been thoroughly researched and are well understood by experts.

    With due respect to all. The problem seems to be ill informed national knee jerk reactions to well-intentioned, activist pressure groups.

    When everyone has bought electric vehicles, people will find they can’t use them not only for the reasons above, but also the fact that national leaders will start to close roads, because they can’t provide the infrastructure to power the vehicles.

    Pressure from environmentalists to improve air quality will be conformed to by closing all possible (especially rat run) streets in the name of an improved living conditions. It’s already happening all over the U.K. They are called Low Traffic Environments. Basically, forcing people to walk or bike instead of using cars.
     
  20. Mike N

    Mike N Missing the old TB Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jan 28, 2001
    Spencerport, New York
    Closed for Mod review.
     
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  21. Primary

    Primary TB Assistant

    Here are some related products that TB members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to TB’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to TB discussions about these products.

     
    Sep 20, 2021

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