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NOOOOO, MY TONE!!! HELP!!!

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by BigBohn, Jan 7, 2002.


  1. BigBohn

    BigBohn

    Sep 29, 2001
    WPB, Florida
    I have had my Eden Navigator-Eden 410XLT rig for a week or so now, and this damn Navigator is sooo confusing (yet I love it). The EQ, aRgGgGhH!, is impossible to get right. I hear lots of comments that everyone that owns Eden amps just leave them flat. To me flat sounds fine when I'm practicing, but I need an EQ thats a bit more ballsy, with more on the low end and less brightness, but not dullness, and non-nasal, nice sounding mids.

    But heres the kicker. When I plug up my nice big pair of headphones to the stereo headphone jack in the Eden amp, with the cabinet off, I LOVE the tone. Everything about it, even when its flat. Arggghh...I hope something can be done about this because I hope theres nothing wrong with the cab.

    I'm sorry about this, but I didn't get a manual with it. I'll have to wait another few weeks for it to get here. :(

    If anyone, I mean ANYONE, that is familiar with the Eden amp controls, like "Tube", "Enhance", Compressor "Threshold and Ratio", and the EQ on them, please help a brother out.

    Thanks for your time and help. School starts back tomorrow, so I'm short on time. Please help soon. Thanks again.
     
  2. Sounds like it's time for you to figure out if its the amp or the speakers that are not giving you what you want. Time may be short, but you still have to invest whatever it takes to figure it out.

    I'd think the headphones are post-EQ, but that is strictly a guess on my part. But, if post-EQ, the amp tone heard in the phones should be also provided to the cabs.

    But... the D-410XLT will not come anywhere close to reproducing the lows you can get from an accurate set of headphones. Remember the D-410XLT is designed to be Loud and not Low. Yeah, back to this discussion yet again...

    :D

    If you have the stereo gear, see if you can plug Line Out from the amp into the Line In of your stereo and play it that way. Or, hook one of your HiFi stereo speakers up to the Eden amp out line. This will tell you if the lack of tone is in the speakers or the amp settings.
     
  3. BigBohn

    BigBohn

    Sep 29, 2001
    WPB, Florida
    Thanks for the advice, Bruce. I'm thinking the 410XLT isn't reproducing the bass that the headphones were giving me. Maybe adding a 115XLT or 118XL would help the low end department. Whatever, anyways thanks again.
     
  4. BigBohn

    BigBohn

    Sep 29, 2001
    WPB, Florida
    I was just testing the limits of my cabinet and amp right now. So I set my volume up to max on my bass, on my preamp, and on my poweramp. Everything at max. Sure its loud, but all the EQ was flat, so there wasn't alot of bass. Then I just started fooling around with the treble on the preamp, maxing both the high knob and treble knob. Suddenly, with out me playing or anything, the db meter on the preamp goes crazy, all the way to red, a sudden shriek comes out of the cab, then its gone as quick as it came. My ears kind of hurt now, but I hope I didn't do anything.

    I tried this again at lower volume, to see if I didn't blow the tweeter or something, and I think there was little or no treble, and whatever treble there was, it was coming from the speakers, not the tweeter. Arggghh....this sucks.... :mad:
     

  5. I wouldn't worry about it. Your cab is most likely protected with a light bulb in front of the tweeter. You can just replace this, it's most likely fine.
     
  6. Sounds like you might've induced enough feedback to blow the tweeter circuit (most are protected by an auto lightbulb) - no worries, there'll be a panel on the back of the cabinet that you can remove, and it's obvious from there. I do it all the time in my Ampeg 4x10, so these days i'm forgetting about the tweeter entirely (it's pretty useless unless the amp's stage sound is providing the bass to the audience, or the cabinet is mic'ed suitably).

    The best way to make sense of the Eden preamp is like this:

    - turn the master down to zero, then play your bass, and adjust the input gain until the "set level" light flashes only on your strongest/loudest notes.
    - leave the Bass and Treble controls to flat (12o'clock), and the Enhance to flat (all the way left)
    - turn up the Master, and while playing a few notes, start to adjust each Midrange band. Start left to right, and for each band, boost it to maximum. Then, sweep the frequency knob (while playing) - you'll instantly hear changes. Find the frequency that suits, and pull back the gain on it until it's nice. Then go on to the next Midrange band. If you're finding there are frequencies you want to kill, do the same but with a full cut on the band.

    The midrange EQ is what will give your tone, the Bass and Treble controls being used (mostly) to compensate for room acoustics (or lack thereof).

    The compressor really won't help your tone much, unless you're a slap-head.
    Compressor threshold - the level at which the compressor kicks into life. A higher setting will only compress on louder notes, a lower setting will compress the whole signal.
    Compressor ratio - how much compression, in a ratio to volume. For example, a compression of 4:1 means that, when fully compressing, the output will be 1/4 that of the input level. That's why (most) compressors have a Gain control that compensates for the volume loss.

    The Enhance ("magic") knob is pretty much a mid-range scoop, enhancing the bass and treble frequencies. This will suck midrange tone quickly, but is good in small amounts to reduce "honk".

    The Headphone out is post-EQ, but headphones being full-range will not give you an accurate reference for how the cabinet will sound (but, if DI'ing from the head to a desk, this is what the audience *should* hear, if the PA has a reasonably flat response).

    btw, watch out for the Eden EQ - it's pretty damn strong, and as you've found out, big settings can actually kill things, esp. if the cabinet isn't rated to suit.
     
  7. Munjibunga

    Munjibunga Total Hyper-Elite Member Gold Supporting Member

    May 6, 2000
    San Diego (when not at Groom Lake)
    Independent Contractor to Bass San Diego
    Like I always say ... a little dab'll do ya'.
     
  8. Jerry J

    Jerry J Supporting Member

    Mar 27, 2000
    P-town, OR
    I know what the problem is! You aren't using an Aguilar GS410 with your Navigator. Talk about a ballsy rig. whew-wee! It gets kinda scary.

    Nil's reply is about as right as can be. That's the way she works. Don't let it get the best of you. Just be glad that it's not an SF-2 (j/k).
     
  9. Matthias

    Matthias

    May 30, 2000
    Vienna, Austria
    this is ...ahem... not wise

    You're not only taking the risk of blowing your speakers, this method tells you absolutely NOTHING about 'the limits of your amp and cab'

    You reach the limit of the amp when clipping sets in - and this has nothing to do with the absolute position of the knobs. For more detailed info please read the various threads about clipping.

    Depending on how much bass you're pumping out and how the power handling of the cab is related to the power rating of the amp, you're cab will reach it's limit earlier than the amp or not.

    Matthias
     
  10. Matthias

    Matthias

    May 30, 2000
    Vienna, Austria
    a short addtiton to nil's post:

    Boosting frequencies with the EQ is basically the same as increasing the gain level (but only for certain frequency bands), so to avoid clipping you might have to readjust the gain knob after setting the EQ, especially when you're adding a lot of low frequencies.

    Matthias
     
  11. phogchris

    phogchris www.scarsoflife.com

    May 27, 2000
    Boca Raton, FL

    I am not trying to be a pain, but for some reason I don't think this is correct....I think 4:1 means something to the effect that the signal above the threshold is compressed 4X more than the level below the threshold or something, this explanation seems a bit off. Are there any compressor experts who could explain it better or correctly, I think I am now confused and hope that I haven't been using my compressor incorrectly....


    :eek:

    :D
     
  12. The way the compresssion ratio thing works is that say at a ratio of 4:1, for an increase in gain of 4dB above threshold at the input you only get a 1 dB increase at the output. The same principle applies to any other ratio. So for a 2:1 ratio, every 2 dB increase in gain above the threshold will result in 1dB of gain at the output. So what nil said is essentially correct, except that it applies to any signal above the compressor's threshold voltage. So if a signal is above the threshold the compressor is fully compressing. Compression used right can be a huge addition to your sound, used wrong it can make your sound pretty lifeless. In my experience the built in compressors on most amps are awful and not to be used under any circumstances. Can't comment on the Navigator, though because I've never used one.
     
  13. BigBohn

    BigBohn

    Sep 29, 2001
    WPB, Florida
    Wow, great advice guys!!! :)

    nil, that was a great post you wrote. It told me exactly all the things I was wondering about amps. One more question is, is it right to have the preamp cranked to max, but have the poweramp to minimum, or vice versa?

    Munji, Jerry, Matthias, spacegoat, phogchris, cubeenz, and bgavin, thanks for all the extra info and advice too. I think what I have to do is replace the diaphragm of the tweeter, just 25 bucks, to repair this. Is this easy to do by myself or must it be taken into the shop. Is this even what should be done to fix the cab? Thanks again, all.
     
  14. I think your biggest problem is that you're not playing through a tube amp. ;)
     
  15. As noted above, the tweeter is protected by a "fuse" (lightbulb). All you really should have to replace is the bulb.

    From the Eden website ( http://www.eden-electronics.com/Manuals/speaker manual3.txt ):
    For more info see: http://www.eden-electronics.com/tweeter.html and http://www.eden-electronics.com/eq.html
     
  16. As noted above, the tweeter is protected by a "fuse" (lightbulb). All you should have to replace is the bulb.

    From the Eden website ( http://www.eden-electronics.com/Manuals/speaker manual3.txt ):
    For more info see: http://www.eden-electronics.com/tweeter.html and http://www.eden-electronics.com/eq.html

    Good luck!
     
  17. Depends to a degree on the design of the preamp. With a good tube preamp that you can push (ie dial in some grit from the tube(s)), your ideal sound might come from a pushed preamp.
    In most real-world situations though it's best to set the preamp so that it's sending maximum signal to the poweramp section without clipping. Remember that a clipping preamp signal will be amplified by the power section into the cabinet...ouch.

    If the tweeter is bulb-protected the diaphragm shouldn't have died. If it's not, it wouldn't be hard to wire one in...
     
  18. phogchris

    phogchris www.scarsoflife.com

    May 27, 2000
    Boca Raton, FL
    Thank You!! I understand now, it only compresses what is above the threshold....got it!!
     
  19. Matthias

    Matthias

    May 30, 2000
    Vienna, Austria
    I would also recommend doing it this way. Set preamp gain first (so that the clip light only flashes occasionally on the loudest notes), than adjust master to achieve desired volume (within the limits of your amp of cause)

    FYI there are amps without a master volume knob (e.g. the new Hartke 4000). In this case, all the volume control is done with the preamp gain, power amp input level is always at max.

    If you do this with your amp by setting the master volume at max. this has 2 disadvantages:

    - high noise level (hiss)
    - narrow adjusting range of the gain knob (the slightest turn of the knob will most likely result in huge volume change which makes it harder to adjust your playing volume)

    Matthias
     
  20. BigBohn

    BigBohn

    Sep 29, 2001
    WPB, Florida
    nil, matthias, and especially Joe, thanks for the help. I think that I should just open the sucker up in the back and see whats going on. No light went off when this happened. It just when SSSSSSSS for less than 1 second then the tweeters treble was gone. Hmmmmm.....I still think the diaphragm is the culprit. Thanks anyways guys. :)