on line jamming technology

Discussion in 'Live Sound [BG]' started by Ric5, Jan 6, 2021.


  1. Ric5

    Ric5 Supporting Member

    Jan 29, 2008
    Colorado
    If I could only own 36 basses what would they be?
    With the shutdown that seems to be going on for years and live music pretty much dead ... I am interested in jamming online.

    Are there any technologies that actually work?
     
  2. s0c9

    s0c9 Supporting Member

    Jan 9, 2014
    Ft.Worth/Dallas
    1964 Audio artist, Fractal Audio Beta Tester
    No, not really. It’s called physics...latency will always be a problem.
    You could try jamkazam client, or install/build your own servers on AWS to run jamulus or similar packages.
     
  3. enzodm

    enzodm

    Mar 3, 2016
    Italy
    Actually, it mostly depends on your connectivity, expectations, patience. Well connected players may experience latencies not far from those you find on a large stage. Part of the latency is not given by the network, but on your local setup (audio interface, software, buffers), which needs to be well set (Windows is slightly more tricky). Even when everything is well set, you may have occasional issues. For me, being able to play together my friends still remains a plus, thus it is from April that I use Jamulus.
    Finally, patience: you get used to some latency, if it is stable (so, no WiFi for connection). The first attempts are more difficult, but there are tricks to make life easier.

    You may do your own experiments without loosing much time with Jamulus, provided that you have an audio interface, an Ethernet connection, headphones. There are a number of public server available, for which you see also the "ping time", i.e., the delay introduced by the network, to which your local delay has to be added. Just connect to the one with the best ping time and try it (remember to hear your signal as coming from the server, no local monitoring). If you are almost happy, then there is also the possibility to install a private server strictly for your band, although it's not mandatory.
    Here some examples (recorded, but every Saturday there is a World Jam event that is in realtime and associated with video too): Jamulus Demos – Jamulus Wiki

    If you decide to try, am happy to help.
     
    s0c9 likes this.
  4. seamonkey

    seamonkey

    Aug 6, 2004
    Jamulus is likely what most people are thinking, but
    Another type of online jamming example:
     
  5. enzodm

    enzodm

    Mar 3, 2016
    Italy
    Yes, another type, similar to Ninjam (with managed delay - not true true realtime).
     
  6. 4Mal

    4Mal Supporting Member

    Jun 2, 2002
    Columbia River Gorge
    I've been looking at Jamakazam. Anybody experience that one yet ? Lot's of mindless bitching in their FB forum as they shifted to a subscription model recently. If it works, it's worth payin for IMO...
     
  7. DirtDog

    DirtDog

    Jun 7, 2002
    The Deep North
    Tried most of them to no good effect since March. And not for the lack of trying, experimenting or technical skills. We ran a Jamulus kernel on AWS and then a dedicated Linux box. Latency was still in the 90-100ms range. Not workable.

    Weakest link in our chain is the guitarist is in rural area with spotty ADSL. I’m urban with gigabit FTTH. Cant overcome network issues and physics with software IMO.
    You might have better results if players are located close together in a single urban area. Oh, and make sure you’re hardwired to your router...no Wifi.
     
  8. KohanMike

    KohanMike Gold Supporting Member

    I have a very fast Mac computer and a very fast internet service on ethernet running from 450 to 500 Mbps. The leader of my group lives about 6 miles from me on a fast Mac computer and the same internet service as me. The latency is about 10-15ms and we cannot play together at all.
     
  9. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    Jamulus has been working for us quite well, even with up to 70ms of latency. There are issues. At higher latencies, certain tempi and busy lines the latency can make the note you are playing coincide with the last one coming back at you. We use pur own backing tracks for probably 90% of tunes so staying in time is pretty easy. But without that, if everyone is taking cues from everyone else there can be a tendancy to slow down. In those situations it falls to me as the bass player to just push on through. Sometimes it works but at other times it is difficult to do that and maintain a laid-back feel.
    Sound quality is generally OK - lower quality or going mono can improve latency, but not by much.
    Having done this a few times a week for the last 6 months I will take these minor niggles over not playing at all every time.
    YMMV
     
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  10. enzodm

    enzodm

    Mar 3, 2016
    Italy
    Are you on WiFi? This would introduce variability in latency, which is difficult to deal with, but 10ms is 3 meters of distance on a stage, not something that usually gives problems.
     
    SteveCS likes this.
  11. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    I would love to have 10-15ms of latency! 10-15ms is more typical of ping time.
     
  12. KohanMike

    KohanMike Gold Supporting Member

    I said we are on ethernet.

    Yes, correct that's ping, I have to check latency.
     
    SteveCS likes this.
  13. enzodm

    enzodm

    Mar 3, 2016
    Italy
    JamKazam is peer2peer, which means you send your audio to all your bandmates, and receive from all of them. This means, possibly, lower latency, but also more bandwidth needed (proportional to players). This poses a limit on the maximum number of players, however for small bands is good. A free and apparently well functioning system of the same kind is Sonobus. You hear your local audio vs. the others delayed, and this could be strange (in Jamulus and other server-based systems, the audio is mixed at the server).

    90-100ms is too much. I have a server on AWS, and I never saw such levels, but here in Europe distances are shorter. There is a service (Dedicated Private Jamulus Server Hosting | Jam and Practise online with low latency ) with a fleet of servers on different providers, you may try with them if they have one closer to you (I think the first booking is free).

    We mostly avoid faster songs because of the higher impact of latency, but if the drummer is able to play as if alone, without taking care of the others, we use him as a reference and it might be possible (but difficult).
     
  14. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    I was referring to songs without any drums or percussion - just piano or keys, bass and vocals.
     
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  15. enzodm

    enzodm

    Mar 3, 2016
    Italy
    so it's your role :) .
     
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  16. KohanMike

    KohanMike Gold Supporting Member

    I just looked up ping, it's only one way, doubling it would be the latency. So between me and her, the latency is around 20-30 and we still can't play together.
     
  17. enzodm

    enzodm

    Mar 3, 2016
    Italy
    Latency is not only ping. With a ping reported by Jamulus of 15ms, the rest is made by soundcard and buffers, and may vary (although 15ms+ping can be easily obtained). I normally play with 55-60ms latency total (35ms of ping, I am on ADSL 20/1), the best in my band has about 45ms. Are you listening to the sound coming from the server? (vs local monitoring, which gives issues).
     
    SteveCS likes this.
  18. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    Totally. That's what I meant by just playing through on my own 'clock'
     
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  19. enzodm

    enzodm

    Mar 3, 2016
    Italy
    I am member of the Mediocre Bassists Club , thus when the drummer is absent, I am not always able to substitute him :)
     
    SteveCS likes this.
  20. SteveCS

    SteveCS

    Nov 19, 2014
    Hampshire, UK
    Ping is shortest round-trip client to server and back, with nothing else happening in between. The rest of the latency is from, amongst other things: buffering; A/D conversion; compression; syncronising and combining audio streams from the various clients into a single return stream; D/A conversion and a host of other timing and error correction processing. Latency within reason is a nuisance provided it is stable, say ±10ms over any given time period, but unstable latency is a real problem, IME.
     
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