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One cabinet for stoopid loud gigs...options?

Discussion in 'Amps, Mics & Pickups [DB]' started by Chris Fitzgerald, Jun 21, 2007.


  1. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator Gold Supporting Member

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    For most of my gigs, a single VL108 or 208 and an AI Focus does fine, and is sometimes even overkill. However, there is a scene starting to develop in town of neighborhood bars hiring jazz groups (interestingly headed toward the "free" side of things) on weeknights and wanting them to sort of "cut loose" volumewise. I've played one of these before and did another last night, and in both cases, the Focus/208 thing was not quite cutting it. The musicians on these gigs are some of the best in the region, and the new scene is interesting and worth pursuing if not completely ideal.

    I used to play a gig like these a couple of years ago, but I was doubling then and took an iAmp800 and two 12" cabs. I could of course take two 208's to these gigs, and that would probably do the trick, only I'm not sure I want to schlep 100 lbs. of speakers to these little clubs to play late on a weeknight...I'll probably try this in the next few weeks, but it's not what I would choose. What I'm looking for is a single cab that can handle gigs like this by itself that won't be much bigger or heavier than the VL208.

    Right now, the NL210 looks good on paper: not too much bigger than the 208, and if I'm not mistaken, it may be even lighter. It's also more sensitive, and available in 8 or 4 ohm versions. The specs read:

    Size: 22.5"H x 17"W x 15"D
    Weight: 44 lbs (subject to change, should be lighter with the new vinyl covering)
    Response: 45Hz to 14KHz
    Impedance: 8 ohm
    Power Handling: 500 Watts
    Sensitivity: 100dB 1" @1m
    Sound Pressure Level: 127dB @ 1M
    Woofers: 2 10" Kevlar Neodymium
    Tweeter with level control: 1" high efficiency phenolic compression driver
    Crossover: damped 4th ordered@3.0KHz

    A couple of questions for those who might understand these things better than I do:

    How much louder would an 8 ohm version of one of these cabs be over the volume I get out of the 208? Would it be likely to handle anything that the Focus can give out (the Focus was cranked higher than I've ever had it last night, and I'd like to run it a little lower on the spectrum if possible)? Has anybody tried DB through one of these, and if so, how does it compare to other well-known speakers? Last, does the little light really go out when you close the refrigerator door?

    Other suggestions are also welcome. :)
     
  2. An Epifani UL 210 would work also well in that situation. About the same footprint, a bit lighter (38 lbs), slightly better sensitivity numbers. Comes in either 4 or 8 ohms.

    I recently used a borrowed one (8-ohms) with a Focus on a seriously loud upright gig and was very pleased with my tone at high volume (a UL 110 is my usual cab for upright).

    An EA CXL 112 will get surprisingly loud, too, though it's as heavy as the NL 210, if a little cheaper.
     
  3. jhelsley

    jhelsley Supporting Member

    Jun 12, 2006
    Oklahoma CIty, OK
    Chris,

    I can't speak to the actual spl of one NL-210 vs. two VL-208's, but I've been using my 210 on my extremely loud wedding band gig (electric bass)...and it doesn't even blink.

    It's light, cute, well behaved...what's not to love.

    I suspect it'll do what you're asking...

    Maybe we can find a minute and compare/contrast?



    btw the way...did you finally check out the Wizzy 10?
     
  4. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator Gold Supporting Member

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    I was wondering about an Epifani cab as well - if i can find someone who has one in the area, I'd love to check it out. My only experience with Epifani so far is a 112 box I played years ago that I felt the CXL 112 was much better than, and I've never run into another since.

    Jack - I've not yet seen a Wizzy 10, although I hope to be able to get up to Cincy to do a comparison before the summer is out. Do you use your NL cab with DB? I'd love to do a comparison if we can find the time and place to do it. I'm hoping the Wizzy 10 is more of a "not quite as loud as a 208 but sounds almost as good at less than half the weight" kinda deal. Whatever cabinet fits the bill for what I'm talking about above would need to get a lot more volume out of the focus than the 208 does (and of course be able to handle the volume without blinking). An efficient 210 sounds like just the ticket, but of course the proof is in the hearing.

    The whole DB volume vs. BG volume thing is a puzzler - a Focus and a 208 will get blindingly loud with a BG hooked up, but as we all know, DB is different. My other option - although a more expensive one - for gigs like this would be to get a Rob Allen fretless Mouse bass for these hits and keep the amp I have. I played a mouse at the Columbus belchfest, and it absolutely floored me. I'd rather stick to DB, but I'd consider using a Mouse if I could find one that was reasonable enough.
     
  5. bribass

    bribass

    Jan 25, 2006
    Northern NJ
    Endorsing Artist; Arnold Schnitzer/ Wil DeSola New Standard RN DB
    Chris, I'm sure the NL 210 would be great but why not try bringing both the 108 and 208 and run both together if you need it. The Focus will take that load (4ohm) in stride and I'll bet it'll sound great.

    A single Wizzy M-line 12 can get pretty darn loud and when I need stupid loud I bring another. At 33 lbs. each it's not a big deal to bring both and I enjoy the scalability when I don't know what to expect w/ a venue that I don't know. W/ both cabs the Focus handles the 2 ohm load no prob.

    If I want one loud cab my Aguilar 112 does fine. Ohms 44 lbs. They're less $ these days and the Focus makes it sound fine for upright. However since purchasing the Wizzy M's I mostly only use those.

    It's my feeling that the Focus really likes a 4 ohm load over an eight.

    BG
     
  6. Uncletoad

    Uncletoad

    May 6, 2003
    Columbus Ohio
    Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
    You should have everything you need already.As you know I play stupid loud quite a bit and this is what I do.

    I set the 208 on the floor, tilt it back, set the amp flat, set the input gain at noon, no high pass, but just the notch filter engaged with the frequency knob all the way to the left. I then run the master up as much as I can without blowing farty sounds or feeding back. I rarely use a mic when it gets loud like that.

    If you need more try using both those boxes at the same time. Pile them on top of each other. That should be enough. I Haven't used 2 VL208's with my DB in a couple years but when I did it was brutal. I can't imagine it would be that much less brutal with one less 8.

    I tried to use my 210 on DB and hated it. The 208 has always been enough even with a B3, three guitars, loud drums, and full PA.
     
  7. Uncletoad

    Uncletoad

    May 6, 2003
    Columbus Ohio
    Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
    I get more volume out of that rig with the DB than I do with the Fender.

    I always bring two boxes with the Fender and one with the DB. I'm not sure why.
     
  8. jhelsley

    jhelsley Supporting Member

    Jun 12, 2006
    Oklahoma CIty, OK
     
  9. Bob Gollihur

    Bob Gollihur GollihurMusic.com

    Mar 22, 2000
    Cape of New Jersey
    Big Cheese Emeritus: Gollihur Music (retired)
    The NL210 is more efficient than the VL208, and it is not as dark as the NL, from which you get more of an open sound. I agree, lugging my 208 is a drag, even though the NL210 is a little larger it seems much easier to move around.

    Since I own a VL208 and have both Foci and NL210 cabs in the shop, I'd be willing to A/B them if you like. The NL210 will take anything the Focus can deliver.

    You might also consider a couple Wizzy 10 cabs given their size and weight, I got silly loud on a slab gig with a Focus and two Wizzy 10s (see mention earlier today within the Neverending Micro300 Story thread). A pair of them are almost exactly the same as the price of an NL210.
     
  10. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator Gold Supporting Member

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    Thanks for chiming in, Bob. I'd love to hear your comparison, but will still probably need to hear with my own ears before spending the $$$. I like the idea of two Wizzy 10's - especially when the specs seem to say that they would weigh in at less than a single 208 - but so far have yet to hear even a single Wizzy 10. If I'm not mistaken, there are two gentlemen TB members with Wizzy 10 cabs in Cincy. Plus, there is a rather smelly but very talented TBer in Indy with an NL210, and another young gent in Indy with an Epi 210.

    Anybody feel another belchfest brewing? :help:

    Toad: two 208's are wonderful to play through, and would no doubt cut the gig. But they are a pain to transport and set up, especially when you have bad knees and get to gigs in a Civic hatchback. :D
     
  11. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    Augusta GA
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    What's the PA scene? If at all possible I would play the setup I normally play and use the PA to get that out to the house.
     
  12. bribass

    bribass

    Jan 25, 2006
    Northern NJ
    Endorsing Artist; Arnold Schnitzer/ Wil DeSola New Standard RN DB
    I think Phil meant why not the 108 AND the 208 together as I also suggested. I'm sure that would be stupid loud enough w/o schlepping two 208's and the 4 ohm load would utilize more juice from the Focus.

    I once took my Focus on an out-of-town gig and for lack of any nice 12's or 8's I rented a Eden David series 15". This rig was really nice sounding and the cab was surprisingly light weight. Not slow sounding like many 15's and not brittle or harsh like Eden 10's that I've tried. Just nice, clean and fat w/ a Bryant DB and another time w/ my Eminence EUB.

    BG
     
  13. Uncletoad

    Uncletoad

    May 6, 2003
    Columbus Ohio
    Proprietor Fifth Avenue Fret Shop. Technical Editor Bass Gear Magazine
    I was suggesting your 208 and your 108 and not spending any more dough.

    You did play through a wizzy at the belchfest, although you may not recall.

    The M line Wizzy was very nice, played very loud by itself. No louder than a 208 I don't think, although the 4 ohm load makes the rig much louder sounding.

    I agree with Ed. I use PA a lot on the loud gigs. If they get me pumping through it my stage rig becomes a monitor for me.
     
  14. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator Gold Supporting Member

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    In these little neighborhood dives, there is none. It's usually sax, guitar or keys, bass, and drums. It's not like a regular "listening jazz" audience: it's younger folks, some of whom listen quietly while others continue to do their barroom thing...but the funny thing is, they all seem to really dig the music. Like I said, it's kind of a cool scene in its own way. As long as you groove like a ************ and the energy is there, you can take it pretty far out and they're into it. And the only gray hair in the room is mine...
     
  15. I envy you.
     
  16. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    Augusta GA
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    You have HAIR?

    Oh, you prolly meant A hair...
     
  17. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator Gold Supporting Member

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    Well, yeah...in my beard. That counts, right?

    Believe me, I'm not complaining at all! Just trying to piece together the right kind of rig for the scene.

    TOADBRI - I might try the "VL308" thing next time I get the call. Good idea!
     
  18. The younger set digs the "jam band" sound so more power to all as you bring new ideas to that, usually rock-oriented, genre. So, yea, why not make it kickin'?
     
  19. I run an AI Focus through one AI cabinet for small gigs and 2 AI cabinets for bigger and/or outside gigs. If I remember right, with one cabinet the Focus puts out 100 watts. With 2 cabinets, the resistance goes from 8 ohms to 2 ohms and the amp puts out 300 watts and is SUBSTANTIALLY louder. Last March I subbed in a rock/funk band and used that 2 cabinet/Focus set up with a Kolstein Travel bass and while I pushed the system to it's max capability under those ear bleeding volumes, it was loud enough.

    With jazz, I've never had to approach the limits of the system even with a drummer who is accurately but affectionately nicknamed "The Bludgeon". Plus, it sounds great at any volume.
     
  20. Jason Hollar

    Jason Hollar Jazz & Cocktails Supporting Member

    Apr 17, 2005
    Central Pa
    Ah Mr. Calivox, good to see you on TB my friend!

    The one time I saw you at the Crawford Grill, your AI combo sounded extra large -- I couldn't believe how much the sound filled the room...with no PA support. I think it was a duo gig with Don Aliquo Sr...

    Chris, I've done lots of these jam band groove gigs. I think a 2x10 is great for this sort of thing. My SWR has been a faithful servant for many years, but I still hope to get an EA NL 2x10 some day. There was an interesting thread a while back that had several people talking about a 4 Ohm NL 2x10. That would sound crazy good with the iamp800 IMHO.

    I'm so bummed I missed the first Belchfest -- but do keep us posted!

    Yo Cali -- I still hope we can hook up for a local hang sometime!

    Jason
     
  21. Primary

    Primary TB Assistant

    Here are some related products that TB members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to TB’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to TB discussions about these products.

     
    Jan 16, 2021

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