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Options for Trace Elliot Commando with Blown Speaker

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by JazzBassvb, Jan 20, 2004.


  1. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    Hi all,

    Please forgive me as the subject of Amps is totally new to me and I'm wading through as much info as I can.

    I have a Commando 15 (older style 100w RMS 200w peak with Gain and no headphone jack). I blew the speaker and thus it makes a sort of rattling sound when I thump down low.

    I emailed AvatarSpeakers about a Kappa Pro 15 LF replacement speaker. It handles 500w and is 8 ohm. I should find out pretty soon how much it's going for.

    So what I'm wondering is this:

    Would I benefit more from just replacing the speaker with the huge gap in power (100w or 200w for 500w on the speaker) or could I get a 8ohm cab, rated for less peak handling power, and just cut the speaker portion of the combo off, wire the output from the amp appropriately, and use my head to power the new cab?

    I just plan on using it for practice and small coffee house gigs.

    Any insight and suggestions would deeply be appreciated!

    Thanks,
    JB
     
  2. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    I would plan on making it into a small coffee table!! ;)


    Well you did say :

    "Any insight and suggestions would deeply be appreciated!"
     
  3. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. :D :D :D

    Believe me, I've thought about that, but budget is tight.

    Take care,
    JB
     
  4. MrBonex

    MrBonex

    Jan 2, 2004
    New Hampshire
    I did a little research on 15 inch bass speakers, and it looks (from a spec point of view only) that the Kappa pro is a great choice. I'm particularly impressed by the efficiency -- 103 db. That, my friends is tres efficient. Make that little amp sound a bit bigger.

    The only issue is weight. It's a rather hefty puppy 'cause it uses a big-ass ceramic magnet. Eminience also makes a nice neodymium 15 inch that will lower the weight of your cab by a pretty big chunk -- if that's of concern.
     
  5. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    Thanks!

    I really don't think weight is a factor.

    I already transport the stupid thing via a luggage carrier and it's heavy enough as it is.

    I'd be more than happy to put up with more weight if the sound was going to be good and if my amp could power it.

    I appreciate it.
    JB
     
  6. Eric Moesle

    Eric Moesle Supporting Member

    Sep 21, 2001
    Columbus OH
    You shouldn't pick a replacement speaker based upon power handling or "reputation". You should choose one with the closest design parameters to the one you are replacing, the one that your cabinet was tuned to.

    The Eminence Kappa 15LF is indeed a great speaker, WHEN INSERTED INTO AN APPROPRIATE CABINET. I don't know the dimensions/porting of your combo, but the 15LF might be a terrible mismatch . . .
     
  7. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    Thanks for the reply.

    Well, I figured out what my cabinet diminsions are.

    My cab is 19 3/4 Wide, 18 1/4 High, and 11 Deep.

    So if I did the math right, I came out to something like 2.2 cubic feet, which the speaker in question needs a space of 2.9 to 4.?. Plus it needs to be vented. So I don't think that will work.

    I think what I'm going to do, is go to a local speaker place called "National Speaker" here in Denver and see what they can do. They may be able to recone it or recommend something else.

    I would like to get something close the sensitivity of the Kappa pro.

    I really need to do more research so I don't feel in the dark.

    Thanks for the responses.

    JB
     
  8. eminence legend 15 seems to work in sealed cabs.
    at least they say so in their home page
     
  9. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    Thanks for the idea.

    I'll check them out.

    Take care,
    JB
     
  10. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    Thanks for the suggestion.

    I do have a question though.

    Is porting where you make a hole in the cab to let the expanding air out?

    If so, I wouldn't mind. But there is not too much space for a decent sized hole. I also thought about adding a horn and crossover, but again, I don't think I have enough space for it.

    For everyone.

    I got some specs from the blown speaker. Would appreciate any leads or info about it. I did a search on the web and it did not come back with anything for the specific speaker. I did find some info on the company, though.

    Make: Celestion
    Model: BG155100.

    My guess it only handles a peak of 100 to 155 watts, so that may explain why I blew, other than having too much bass for as loud as I had it. ;) :rolleyes:

    Thanks again!
    JB
     
  11. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    I appreciate it.

    I have some more reading to do. :)

    Take care,
    JB
     
  12. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    Hi everyone,

    Well, I went to National Speaker and Sound over the weekend and they showed me a Emminence Delta 15 and said they have replaced many cabs (sealed, like mine) with this speaker and it sounds good.

    I found it handles around 400 watts or so and the sensitivity is around 93. So all in all, it doesn't seem like a bad speaker.

    What do you folks think?

    http://editweb.iglou.com/eminence/eminence/pages/products02/speakpro/del15.htm

    Thanks,
    JB
     
  13. MrBonex

    MrBonex

    Jan 2, 2004
    New Hampshire
    You should think carefully. A 93 db sensitivity (Delta) versus a 103 db sensitivity (Kappa Pro) is pretty huge.

    A 10 db difference is that your amp will play twice as loud with the Kappa than with the Delta.

    In other words, with the Delta you'd need a 400+ watt amp to equal the Trace's 100 watts with the Kappa Pro.

    Now if volume is not an issue, you can ignore the above. But I think that in general -- and this is especially true with low-power amps such as yours, that additional headroom would be a blessing. Etra-especially with solid-state amps which tend to have less headroom that equivalent-powered tube amps.

    So I guess I'd vote for the Kappa Pro -- sealed cab or not.
     
  14. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    Interesting.

    I didn't think it was that much of a difference.

    Yeah, you're right. I want the most sound as possible. At the same time, I don't want it to sound cruddy either.

    The Kappa Pro and the Delta are the same price, just a bit more for the Kappa Pro when you count shipping.

    I'd like to see if someone has them available locally, but if needbe and I ultimately decide to go with the Kappa, then I'll order it online.

    Let me ask this, what difference will it make if I put the Kappa in my cab, which does not meet the minimum enclosed space? I don't have any idea.

    Thanks very much.

    If anyone else has any recommendations, please let me know.

    Take care,
    JB
     
  15. MrBonex

    MrBonex

    Jan 2, 2004
    New Hampshire
    To paraphrase Electrovoice in the literature that accompanies their guitar speakers, (not an exact quote):

    "While this speaker will perform best in a properly designed enclosure, it will also outperform the standard speakers it replaces."

    Keep in mind that most combo amps are not designed for top-of-the-liine sound. There are a LOT of compromises in it's enclosure. I'm sure the Kappa will significantly outperform the standard Celestion that it replaces.

    And from there, it'll just be your fingers making that little amp sing. . .
     
  16. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    MrBonex,

    Thanks very much. I appreciate the quote you paraphrased.

    Let me make a correction, the speaker I'm looking at is the Kappa Pro LF. Is this still a good one?

    Well, if it is, I'm going to look for that speaker locally. If I can't find it, I'll order it through Avatar speakers and be done with it.

    My only other concern was that the cab is not ported, but I guess it'll be ok.

    Thanks again!
    JB
     
  17. MrBonex

    MrBonex

    Jan 2, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Go to

    www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

    They list a whole range of speakers with their specs from a large number of manufacturers.

    I think the one you want is the Kappa Pro 15A. 500 watts, 103db sensitivity. $149.99.

    I'm not suggesting you buy from these people. Only that this is a good site for comparing a large range of drivers from many companies.
     
  18. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    I appreciate the link.

    I'll take a look at it.

    I'm not sure what the difference is between the LF and the non LF.

    Looks like it's the rated power, plus the sensitivity.

    The Pro LF is 100db
    Pro Non LF is 103db.

    Since I'm still not up to the sensitivity stuff, does that make a huge difference.

    Now that I read a little more, it will take twice to power to get the same sound out of the Non LF than LF

    The Pro LF is the one I've found and found it for at least $50 less than the US Speaker place.

    Thanks again and sorry for so many questions.

    After taking a look at the Delta 15a to compare, the sensitivity on it is 101db, not the 92db or so I first thought. :confused: :confused:

    It actually looks like it should be a decent speaker.

    JB
     
  19. MrBonex

    MrBonex

    Jan 2, 2004
    New Hampshire
    The sensitivity quick rule of thumb is:

    A gain of 3db is the equivalent of doubling your power.

    eg: a 100 watt amp with a 100db speaker will play as loud as a 200 watt amp with a 97 db speaker.

    Another way of looking at it is: a 200 watt amp is only 3db louder than a 100 watt amp (all things being equal).

    10 db is approximately twice the percieved volume.
     
  20. JazzBassvb

    JazzBassvb

    Aug 5, 2003
    Yeah I got it now. Thanks.

    I did some more reading and I think I understand it.

    Like I mentioned before, that Delta doesn't sound too bad of a speaker. The 101db has to be better than what's in there now. It just has to be.

    Your thoughts?

    JB