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PA speaker (Larry Grenadier)

Discussion in 'Amps, Mics & Pickups [DB]' started by meursault42, Nov 14, 2012.


  1. meursault42

    meursault42

    Jun 21, 2006
    When I saw Larry Grenadier play with Mehldau at the Vanguard a few years back, he was using one of those JBL powered (I think) PA speakers to amplify his bass on stage. From out in the audience it sounded fantastic. He had the speaker up on a stand near his ears, presumably to hear himself better. Anybody else use/try a similar configuration? I've been thinking I might pick up one of these (New Mackie DLM12) and give it a try with my little Headway preamp. Thoughts?

    FWIW, my current rig is my Mesa Walkabout Scout combo with my headway preamp upfront (basically just my EB rig plus the preamp). Sounds alright, but I'm wondering if I can do better.
     
  2. Ryanpet42

    Ryanpet42 Guest

    Aug 1, 2012
    Grenadier prefers using a mic and a Dyn-B and so he might have sent the signals direct and used the speaker as a monitor.
     
  3. Ric Vice

    Ric Vice Supporting Member

    Jul 2, 2005
    Olivette, Missouri
    I saw Larry Grenadier a year ago with Brad Mehldau. I don't think he's using the DYN-B anymore, at least I didn't see one on the bass, his setup is a Schoeps CMC6 with a supercardiod capsule and the aptly named FMR Audio "Really Nice Preamp". His rider specifies that the producer provide him with a Mackie SRM450 ($470.00) and a tripod stand so that he can put the speaker near ear level. This particular mic and capsule cost close to $1,700.00, the FMR "really nice preamp costs $475.00. It's definitely a pretty pricey rig, but it gets a beautiful sound.

    Ric
     
    geoffbassist likes this.
  4. meursault42

    meursault42

    Jun 21, 2006
    Wow Ric, thanks for all the detailed info! Sounds like a nice rig indeed. Unfortunately I think that Schoeps is pretty far outside of my price range. I've tried mixing my Full-Circle pickup with a couple of different mic configs, but with little success. I invariably seem to get some low-mid freq interference between the two sources. Seems like the kind of thing that would require a crossover between the two, so that the mic would be handling the transients and the pickup would be handling the low end. It's interesting to me though that Grenadier doesn't find it necessary to bother with a hi-end loudspeaker...just a relatively cheap Mackie. Can't argue with the sound he achieves though ;-)
     
  5. PB+J

    PB+J

    Mar 9, 2000
    arlington va
    I use pa speakers exactly the same way--on a stand behind me at ear level. I'm no Larry grenadier, just a local part time gigger. But I find that a pa speaker on a stand helps keep me from overplaying and blistering up, and also makes it easier to watch intonation.

    Because I'm a small time gigger, and schlep all my own gear, I like to keep it light. For very small rooms, I use a mackie srm 150, just as a monitor, and for larger rooms I'm using an ev zx1. Lately I've started using a headway edb1 . If the room is bigger, I use the house pa.

    The other advantage of a pa speaker over an amp IMHO and I do mean HO, is its better at decoupling the floor from the amp. I most often gig with guitarists, and before I went to the pa head the bass was often causing the guitars to feed back.

    Going to the method of a pa speaker on a pole has just made a huge difference for me. I play more relaxed and hear myself better and balance with the band better
     
  6. John Goldsby

    John Goldsby Supporting Member

    Mar 4, 2003
    Bassist @ WDR Big Band Cologne, Regular Contributor to Bass Player Magazine
    I use a Schoeps MK41 when I'm recording AND playing live with the WDR Big Band. The Schoeps CMC6 is the long, body part of the microphone that amplifies the sound before it goes to the mixing board.

    The MK41 head is their microphone capsule with the least amount of bleed from the front -- a super-cardioid, almost like a shotgun microphone.

    I'd be curious which capsule Larry is using with the CMC6 body. Anyone know? Ric?
     
  7. Ric Vice

    Ric Vice Supporting Member

    Jul 2, 2005
    Olivette, Missouri
    John,
    Larry uses a MK41 capsule and the CMC6. So it looks like you are using identical rigs. It gets a beautiful sound, but mic's only reproduce what's coming from the players head, heart, and hands and Larry's definitely got all those things going for him. Frankly, I think the Mackie Powered Speaker is just something he came up with that's readily available as a rental when he's touring.

    Ric
     
  8. John Goldsby

    John Goldsby Supporting Member

    Mar 4, 2003
    Bassist @ WDR Big Band Cologne, Regular Contributor to Bass Player Magazine
    Not so identical, actually. I use the Schoeps for FOH and for the recording truck (all of our concerts are recorded) and in the studio. The Schoeps is mounted on a stand and pointed at the soundpost-side bridge foot, about 2 inches away from the top. Onstage, in addition to the Schoeps, I use a DPA mounted on the bass for the stage monitors (a wedge on the floor).

    Also onstage, I use a Fishman p/u through a Fishman Platinum Pro into a Glockenklang Bass Art. The amount of amp onstage depends on the type of music we are doing and who needs to hear what. Sometimes I don't use an amp at all and just rely on the mics and acoustic sound.

    Tonight, I'm playing in Guimaraes, Portugal at the jazz festival with Randy Brecker and the WDR BB. Big hall, big setup.

    You're right about the head, hands, heart stuff :)
     
  9. Ric Vice

    Ric Vice Supporting Member

    Jul 2, 2005
    Olivette, Missouri
    John,
    That is one seriously sophisticated sound setup.
    How, do the sound techs control the frequency response of the bass, from the DPA coming right at you from the monitors? I'm sure interested in that.



    I would think that you probably wouldn't need the amp based on the way they are allocating the different mic's. I'd guess that by doing, this they totally avoid any weird phase problems, by isolating the monitor mix on a separate send with a different microphone (DPA 4099), and sending the FOH through the mains using the Schoeps.

    Nice, I wish we could get those live broadcasts here in the states.


    Well, I heard you play with John Clayton, Todd Coleman, and Tommy Kennedy here in St. Louis a while back. What a treat that was for my head, hands and ears. :) Great playing.

    Ric
     
  10. John Goldsby

    John Goldsby Supporting Member

    Mar 4, 2003
    Bassist @ WDR Big Band Cologne, Regular Contributor to Bass Player Magazine
    The DPA seems to have a certain mid-range sound that works okay coming out of a wedge on the floor. The monitor is about 2 feet to the side of my right foot, pointed towards my right ear (the bass is pointed forward and they sometimes have a small baffle in front of the Schoeps). I don't get feedback or boom coming from the monitor (and I don't have the monitor loud). Usually only a tiny, tiny bit of bass, piano and soloist microphones in the monitor.



    The amp is also not loud, but it depends if we're playing straight-8th / fusiony music. Then I'll use the amp more, and play a little lighter with more amp. Also, if I'm playing some electric (like I am tonight), then the amp helps put the two instruments in the same sonic realm. If we are playing straight-ahead, then I almost don't use the amp.

    You can hear various programs we do on the WDR Big Band Website. The next live stream is with Kurt Elling on Dec 7th. They also have a WDR Radio Recorder app where you can record the shows on a timer.

    I remember that gig well . . . I think we called the group "Talking Hands." :)
     
  11. Ric Vice

    Ric Vice Supporting Member

    Jul 2, 2005
    Olivette, Missouri
    This gives me food for thought, I've been looking for a way to play with a 12 piece ensemble that we have here in St. Louis. Using an amp is all ways a stretch, because it's just to tight on most of the stages we perform on.


    That makes perfect sense, it's always tricky for me, even with a two channel Walter Woods, to get both instruments in the same ballpark sonically, then there's the problem of the levels between the two.

    Now I'm really excited, I'll check that out, can't wait

    Maybe you'll do it again some day. It was a very worthwhile artistic effort. I've never heard anything like it sence, have a great gig, I'll be listening.

    Ric
     
  12. Gregmak

    Gregmak

    Oct 1, 2009
    Larnaca, Cyprus
    Sorry to bring this thread back to life. But I have some questions regarding the schoeps cmc6/m41. I currently use a Troll mic into an AI Coda s4. I love the troll because it's very feedback resistant, and I could never use a pickup. I play with all gut and play 50% pizz 50% arco in a jazz quartet.

    I'm looking to invest in a higher end mic, because the troll doesn't deliver a lot of detail. The sound is pretty dark and sometimes can get muddy, and it has no "air", at least on my bass. It sounds like the high frequencies are scooped out. I was wondering if I would be able to use the schoeps cmc6 into my AI Coda without feedback problems. The bar gigs I play are pretty small, so I don't need a crazy amount of volume. Just a small extra push. I used to play these gigs without an amp for years, but it seems lately I am putting too much strain on plucking arm, so I am using an amp to make things easier for me.

    Would love to hear any feedback on this!

    Greg
     
  13. Ric Vice

    Ric Vice Supporting Member

    Jul 2, 2005
    Olivette, Missouri
    Greg,
    Well it's been sometime since I visited this thred. Newer gear is avaliable that sounds very good. DB specific Microphones from Ischell, Remic, Troll, and DPA have raised the bar significantly. If you want to try something similar to the Schoeps you might consider a Peluso CEMC6. I've recorded with one and they sound great.

    Ric
     
  14. flatback

    flatback

    May 6, 2004
    The Peluso with a HC for $600 looks really interesting....
     
  15. Ric Vice

    Ric Vice Supporting Member

    Jul 2, 2005
    Olivette, Missouri
    Yep,
    They are essentially "replicas" of the Shoeps with some varations, of course a Shoeps is a Shoeps, but the Peluso's are darn close
    I've used one on a couple of albums and they sound magnificent. I'm not sure if we used a Hypercardiod or not. Since I'm isolated
    from everyone in the studio, it may have just been a cardiod.

    Ric
     
  16. Gregmak

    Gregmak

    Oct 1, 2009
    Larnaca, Cyprus
    Hi Ric, thanks for that! I will check it out.
     
  17. Thanks for the advice on the Peluso CEMC6. I just had my DPA stolen :-(.... so I'm looking for a new mic. I found the troll too muddy and dark for my bass which is already pretty dark. I love using a QSC K10 with my headway. but I also haven't been crazy about the DPA. It doesn't (or didn't) do very well with certain low notes and was kinda glassy/crispy sounding. and it picks up everything! I have to blend things with my full circle and I'm a little hesitant trying some of the contact mics... they sound kinda plasticy to me on some of my friends' basses.

    Besides the Peluso i was directed to an Oktava mod mic that is supposed to be comparable to a schoepps... the OKTAVA MK-012 "film edition" that could be modded by Michael Joly even further... anybody have any experience with these?
     
  18. Ric Vice

    Ric Vice Supporting Member

    Jul 2, 2005
    Olivette, Missouri
    JChristensen,
    Well, I wan't to be clear that I've only used the CEMC6 in the studio, not in live performance. You have a good setup with QSC K10 and the Headway, but the CEMC6 is designed for 48v phantom power. The Headway only puts out 18v, which may
    not power up the Peluso sufficently. We, know the DPA will work with the Headway because John Litter tested it and DPA later released specifications confirming that, to be the case. I've used both versions of the Remic DB400 and they are anything
    but "plasticy" or inexpensive for that matter, but just like any microphones, they do have feedback thresholds, just like the DPA does. For a lot of players here on Talkbass the Ischell has worked remarkably well.

    Ric
     
  19. Thanks for advice Ric! I'll take a gander at the Ischell!
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2017