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Perplexed in the midwest

Discussion in 'Live Sound [BG]' started by Medford Bassman, Dec 21, 2011.


  1. Medford Bassman

    Medford Bassman Supporting Member

    Aug 8, 2007
    Medford, Wisconsin
    I am using a A&H MixWiz3. I run the kick drum and my bass through the AUX to a crossover than onto a xTi 4000 Crown amp out to the subs. SHould be plenty of power going to the subs.

    Last drummer had a heavy foot, very hard to control the input gain on the mixer, often clipping the Crown amp. Purchased a compressor, helps some.

    My problem, the kick always sounds weak through the subs. I am using a pair of EV T-18 for subs.

    Also I set Aux in post fader mode. My bass sounds good through the subs, nice and loud. But for the life of me, the kick drum is always weak.

    New drummer, new mikes. Same result at the last gig. Guitarists complains wants to hear the thump of a kick in his chest.

    I should note I've worked the EQ for the kick per recommendations here and elsewhere as well as the compression settings. Still weak.

    I am perplexed. If anyone can offer help I would appreciate the early X-mas gift.
     
  2. Hi.

    Perplexed in the northern Europe as well.

    But probably not for the same reason as You are ;).

    Why such a complicated way to reinforce the low end? If You don't mind me asking.

    Regards
    Sam
     
  3. Barisaxman

    Barisaxman Gold Supporting Member

    Aug 17, 2005
    Omaha, NE
    First, I would pull the compression off the kick drum. I've not run into any reason to compress it live....gate, yes. "Thump/Punch" is generally around 80 hz....then fill in with lower frequencies, but those are generally bass guitar range so don't go crazy. The trick really is a well-tuned kick drum...if it sounds cr@ppy acousitcally, you're not going to make it magically awaken by amplifying that sound.
     
  4. +1 to Barisaxman; also, where is your crossover point?
     
  5. lowendgenerator

    lowendgenerator

    Mar 26, 2006
    CHI/NWI
    Devils Advocate: Why not buy a trigger/module? Then your drummer can kick it as hard or as soft as he wants and it'll still sound good, with no worries about clipping at the board.
     
  6. Medford Bassman

    Medford Bassman Supporting Member

    Aug 8, 2007
    Medford, Wisconsin
    crossover set at 100hz as low as I can set it.

    I think the xTi 4000 should be plenty powerful for the two EV T-18s. I just can get it to really pump yet the bass guitar sounds good as well as when I use my iPod for break music. Just the kick sounds weak.

    With the new drummer I don't have a problem clipping the mixer of amp. Whew!!

    I kind of thought the compressor added a litle oomph but perhaps I'm wrong.
     
  7. derrico1

    derrico1 Supporting Member

    Apr 12, 2005
    Charlottesville, VA
    At least for diagnosis, +1 to pulling the compressor for now.

    First, does the kick sound good when soloed full-range via the board's main outputs? If no, then the trouble is probably mic placement, gain staging, or tech gremlins in mic/cable/or kick's mixer channel.

    OTOH, if the kick's full-range tone is fine, then the problem is likely to be in the path from the kick channel to the board's aux send that feeds the subs. (You know the system seems to work from aux send through sub amps/speakers, b/c your bass is as expected through the subs.)

    As a test, take the bass/kick aux send through and amp to a full range top (watch your volume levels, natch). Does the kick still get lost against the bass? If so, the problem is upstream of the crossover and sub amps.

    If the trouble seems to be after the channel strip's pre-amp but before the mixer's aux out, you could try feeding the subs some kick signal from a different aux send, but I always prefer to diagnose by isolating questionable elements against known-good paths. You know that the aux send on the bass channel works, so I'd suggest trying the kick through that known-good path.

    If the kick sounds tight and right through the bass's mixer channel/aux path, then you've confirmed there's something funky with the aux path of your mixer's kick channel. If you have an open channel on your board, now's the time to try moving the kick to that channel. If otherwise, try feeding the subs from a different aux send.
     
  8. Rick Auricchio

    Rick Auricchio Registered Bass Offender

    Amplifying the "boom" of a kick drum will make it sound like some marching band drum---at best. Usually all you get is competition with the bass frequencies, and the result is mud.

    Listen to a few modern Nashville records. What you hear from the kick is a lot of the midrange. It's the sound of the beater hitting the drum head that we hear in those records. This is what listeners are familiar with...not boom.

    That's far easier to amplify, and it'll work wonders for the audience.
     
  9. Medford Bassman

    Medford Bassman Supporting Member

    Aug 8, 2007
    Medford, Wisconsin
    thanks everyone, I'm going to try some of the suggestions!
     
  10. basey

    basey

    Jul 31, 2005
    San Antonio, Texas
    Do you high pass the signal from the crossover? T18s run out of juice pretty fast below 40 hz. You might be wasting a lot of amp power on stuff your speakers can even produce. I like to run the subs on an aux too, but I usually run them pre fader for a better gain structure to the amp.
     
  11. Stumbo

    Stumbo Wherever you go, there you are. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 11, 2008
    Song Surgeon slow downer. https://tinyurl.com/y5dcuqjg
  12. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Gold Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 20, 2009
    alpha-music.com
    or at least set side-by-side, ideally in front of the stage if there's room.

    split apart, there's a bunch of cancellation, while right together, they reinforce each other.
     
  13. Vinny D

    Vinny D

    Jan 9, 2007
    Warwick, RI
    The EV T18's are very weak for subs, they date back aways in the EV lineup and are easily outperformed by many subs out in the market today.
    Make sure the kick drum is tuned properly as that will go a long way in getting a good solid thump.
    Get rid of all the toys on the kick mic and let it actually work and see what you have.
    Maybe I missed it but what do you have for a kick mic?
    Certain mic's need EQ tweeks to make them come alive....some don't.
    Is there a hole in the kick drum?
    Mic placement and which mic you are using will greatly vary the results.
    Make sure the balance between the high packs and subs is set properly also..
     
  14. Medford Bassman

    Medford Bassman Supporting Member

    Aug 8, 2007
    Medford, Wisconsin
    Thanks for the advice. Yeah the T-18's are weak compared to others around. My fault for relying on a guy who runs sound at a school. Sadly he pushed me towards them because his music equipment supplier wanted to get rid of them. However, I gotta keep them. No $$ for replacements. I'm going to take the advice here and ace them together to get what I can from them
     
  15. Stumbo

    Stumbo Wherever you go, there you are. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 11, 2008
    Song Surgeon slow downer. https://tinyurl.com/y5dcuqjg
    Stack them next to the GP's amp and let him getting thumped in the chest. :hyper::D
     
  16. Passinwind

    Passinwind I know nothing. Commercial User

    Dec 3, 2003
    Columbia River Gorge, WA.
    Owner/Designer &Toaster Tech Passinwind Electronics
    +1
     
  17. fokof

    fokof One day ,I'll be in the future

    Mar 16, 2007
    Here
    ^^^^^ What he says :hyper:


    I would put a HPF @ 20-30Hz and boost a tad around 40-50 the kick. No need to push the amp to the limit
     
  18. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Gold Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 20, 2009
    alpha-music.com
    That low on little cheese bar band subs?

    I would have thought a 40Hz cutoff and a kick boost at like 60 or 80 would be more likely to get usable thump without popping the drivers.
     
  19. uhdinator

    uhdinator

    Apr 20, 2010
    Maine
    what kick mic?
    where is it placed?
    what are EQ settings?
    is the kick channel Gain Staged/PLF'd correctly?
     

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