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PO'ed at my rig!

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Wademeister63, Sep 8, 2004.


  1. Wademeister63

    Wademeister63

    Aug 30, 2004
    Denton Tx
    I have a Workingman 2004 amp and Workingman 2 x 10T cab but the thing flutters if I try to crank it. The cab is 8 ohms and the head is rated at 4 so I ordered up a nice new 8 ohm 1X15 Avatar to get everything matched up and get a more solid bottom end. Stupid 2X10 still flakes out on me and the whole rig isn't very loud either. I thought the SWR stuff was supposed to be real good? I have taken the 2X10 cab apart looking for anything loose and can't find anything. Made sure everything went back nice and tight of course. I don't know if it's possible that the 10" speakers are damaged or not, never have had that problem before. The cones look perfect and they do work just fine if I don't try to crank the volume. Then again, maybe it's the amp that's causing the trouble. The clipping light seems to come on early to me, but again I don't have much experience with that so maybe it's normal.

    Any suggestions to get the thing to get loud and deep? Do I need to replace that head or get it repaired or something? What head could I get cheap that sounds decent at least and caan play loud enough to jam with a good drummer? Or how can I check out me 210 cab to see if the problem is in there? Everything seems fine with just the 15" cab, but again not loud enough and the highs suffer.

    I have a practice with a drummer and guitar player this Sunday and I can tell it's going to suck because I don't have the volume I need for them. I don't think I'l be buying an amp before then either unless I can get something for under $200...

    Help please?
     
  2. basss

    basss

    Aug 27, 2001
    NYC
    Try lowering the preamp volume and boost your master volume to make sure you are not overloading the input. Turn down the bass knob - this should let you get more overall volume. Make sure you have a fresh battery in your bass if it is active.
     
  3. bigbeefdog

    bigbeefdog Who let the dogs in?

    Jul 7, 2003
    Mandeville, LA
    What input are you using? Active or passive?

    I second the suggestion to check the battery, if you have one, in your bass.

    Did you just purchase this gear? Has this been a problem since day one, or did something change?

    If it has been underpowered since the first day you had it, it may be that you're asking it for more than it can deliver. OTOH, if it has suddenly lost power/volume, that's definitely a tech issue.
     
  4. Wademeister63

    Wademeister63

    Aug 30, 2004
    Denton Tx
    I put a new battery in the bass but no change. The 210 just falls apart on the low notes. The 115 actually sounds ok on its own but lacks some oompf. Tried messing with every signal input and gain combination, but even with gain master and bass volume up all the way it's not terribly loud. Maybe it's just my 3800 sq ft building swallowing it up but still seems like it should put out more. I don't think it's going to keep up with a drummer very well at all. Is 200W too small an amp to be much good?
     
  5. bigbeefdog

    bigbeefdog Who let the dogs in?

    Jul 7, 2003
    Mandeville, LA
    There are a lot of factors involved, such as sensitivity and placement of your cabs, the size and acoustics of the jam room, the loudness (and gear) of your bandmates, your own expectations of how you fit in the mix, etc....

    But yes, 200W into a 2x10/1x15 is on the light side for a rock power trio bass rig. It is entirely possible you're running out of power.

    Did you buy this from a local store? If so, would they have another one in stock you can try for comparison purposes (to see if yours is clipping prematurely)?
     
  6. Wademeister63

    Wademeister63

    Aug 30, 2004
    Denton Tx
    Unfortunately I bought it second hand. Sounded great in the tiny guitar store and for only $400.00 looked like a great find. I'm kicking myself now though for being so cheap. I guess the working man 2004+210 setup is a practice rig or something? It really does sound fine at home.
     
  7. bigbeefdog

    bigbeefdog Who let the dogs in?

    Jul 7, 2003
    Mandeville, LA
    Actually, it sounds like it was a pretty good deal. And under many circumstances (say, coffeehouse-style acoustic sets), it might have been all you'd need.

    But power-trio stuff in a large room.... that might be asking a bit much of 200W. I haven't tried a rig exactly like yours, but from your comments, that seems to be where you're headed. You may simply have outgrown it, and it's time for bigger and better things.

    The good news would be, if you bought your rig second-hand and have kept it in good condition, you should be able to pass it along and get most (if not all) of your $400 back, then go amp shopping again.... :hyper:
     
  8. I have little experience with the gear that you're using, but from afar it still sounds as if the speakers in your 210T could have developed a problem. Shouldn't that setup be reasonably loud?

    Have you tried the amp with the Avatar alone? Does that sound okay?
     
  9. brianrost

    brianrost Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2000
    Boston, Taxachusetts
    I hate to say this, but that rig should sound fine. It's likely you're just expecting more from it...a LOT more...than it can deliver.

    That rig can definitely put out sufficient volume to play rock gigs. My best suggestion is to very carefully reconsider the EQ settings you are using.

    Good luck!
     
  10. Wademeister63

    Wademeister63

    Aug 30, 2004
    Denton Tx
    Maybe I am expecting too much. It may be louder than I realize, we'll find out on Sunday though. About that EQ, yeah! I can change things a ton fiddling with that. Playing blues based stuff mostly so Iv'e been dialing out most of the highs but I can get quite a bit louder (more audible at least) with some of the highs and mids turned up a bit. Guess I'd better start working on my technique though because I'm hearing all KINDs of finger noise and thin plucking that I never noticed before. No doubt something I should be working on in any case. The 1x15 is doing far better than the 210 though, so at least I have ONE piece I can count on if and when I start swapping stuff out.
     
  11. bigbeefdog

    bigbeefdog Who let the dogs in?

    Jul 7, 2003
    Mandeville, LA
    When you're playing with the crew, try to position your rig in a corner. The walls will reinforce the lows, and you can EQ more toward the mids.
     
  12. Wademeister63

    Wademeister63

    Aug 30, 2004
    Denton Tx
    Very cool bigbeefdog, thanks for the tip.

    I guess you can tell I haven't played out of the house before and really do appreciate any pointers. Well besides the obvious practice yer butt off stuff. I need to go sign up for some lessons too if I can ever find the time.

    *** has that got to do with amps?? I dunno, I guess the equipment can't take care of everything...rambling rambling...

    Thanks though.
     
  13. Two hundred watts, 2x10 and a 1x15 should be perfectly audible over most any drummer. Again, take a look at your EQ settings:

    Start with your EQ at 12:00 and flat and add/remove freqs as necessary. You really shouldn't need the bass knob past 1 or 2:00 for most anything but dub!


    (hmm... two very short paragraphs and two "most any..." references...remind me to change things up...)
     
  14. bigbeefdog

    bigbeefdog Who let the dogs in?

    Jul 7, 2003
    Mandeville, LA
    Normally I'd agree with this, but he did say 3800 sq. feet. Think 38' x 100' room.

    That sort of space requires a LOT of power. :(

    It may be enough; he'll just have to try it and see.
     
  15. ...and think about your "cutting through" low mids around 80Khz. boosting those will give you added punch to stand out against a heavy guitar.

    I'm learning with my band (after being out of a band for years and years) that more power doesn't have to mean more volume (although it CAN certainly) but it allows you to relax and let the amp do the work. An underpowered amp can result in you playing the strings really hard to try to squeeze every db you can! So if you need more power, get it! I currently have a 450wt Ampeg with an Avatar 210 and 212 and it's plenty loud with either cab ALONE or together. But we practice in a small room and I go into the PA live.

    I've spoken with many guys who use the combination you describe and have no problems in a rock setting - the 2004 is highly regarded as a solid amp.

    Don't stress about it yet, see how the practice goes and if you can't hear yourself ask to turn it down a notch, if they are like "no way, louder is better" than they are clueless and the hell with 'em.
     
  16. Alexander

    Alexander

    Aug 13, 2001
    Seattle, WA
    When I bought my SWR, there was a pretty knowledgable SWR guy at BassNW that really helped me out. He said to start with the EQ completely flat and turn up the input gain until the clip indicator came on just slightly when playing the hardest\loudest notes. Then use the master volume for the output and EQ as desired. He also said at quieter settings, more EQ was fine, but the louder you go, the flatter you should set your EQ to get the mileage out of your amp. I don't recall the details, but it seems that every db you boost in EQ takes a pretty good amount of power to do. If you play with a fairly loud band, if anything, boost the mids - this is what the human ear hears the best and it helps punch through a mix. I'm assuming you are not using any pedals in your signal chain - if so, check the batteries. When my batteries start to go, it produces an unpleasant distortion (to me anyway). The rig you describe should allow you to keep up, although just barely if the band is REALLY loud. I play with a loud band and my 200W 4x10 was okay - I just had to run it nearly full out. If none of the suggestions in this thread help, I think you should have a tech check it out to make sure everything is functioning properly and if so you'll need to make a decision after testing in your upcoming rehearsal whether to keep it or not...
     
  17. Wademeister63

    Wademeister63

    Aug 30, 2004
    Denton Tx
    oops! No, I meant the volume on the bass guitar not the bass tone control...
    The building is about 50X75 and acoustically very bad. It's a machine shop. But hey it's space I can use and nobody else seems to have a place where we can play.

    I did jam and play with the setup for about 5 hours last night though and the 15" is great but the 10's seem just about useless to me. I can hardly play anything below a B on the E string without them getting stupid on me. The 15" does fine with just about anything and is a lot louder than the 210 in the range and EQ settings I'm wanting so it's probably fine.

    Like Bigbeefdog said, I may just be trying to fill too large a space and will have to see how it goes with the drummer this weekend. I may find I'm too loud and have to turn down. I only hope!
     
  18. You know, for down the road, the Avatar 210 is an excellent cab. I've not heard Dave's 410 but I bet it's fabulous. Maybe you need to ditch the 210 you've got. I really like the sound of my 210 alone, it's really punchy, but never distorts.
     
  19. bigbeefdog

    bigbeefdog Who let the dogs in?

    Jul 7, 2003
    Mandeville, LA
    And if it's a machine shop, it likely has high ceilings..... :(

    All you can do is try it. Let us know how it works out.
     
  20. Wademeister63

    Wademeister63

    Aug 30, 2004
    Denton Tx
    Yeah the ceiling is about 20 feet high. But the guitar player shouldn't be able to completely drown me out with a 40 watt Hotrod Deluxe should he? Damn that's a loud amp!

    Well it worked out sort of. The drummer was great and we all had a good time at our first practice. We actually played together more than not which, with my lack of experience, I found amazing. Jim (the drummer) says "I think it's ok, there was not a time that I couldn't hear you". Then I showed them how I was maxed out for volume, eq tweaked to make it as audible as possible and treble rolled off just a bit to kill some finger squeaks. :meh:

    So after practice, I headed down to everyone's favorite national chain music store and looked around. My lack of playing skills did not deter me from trying the equipment! I didn't try everything, but I think I tried most in my price range and a couple above it. I found that the Behringer BX3000T and the Workingman 2004 distort when cranked up and aren't loud enough to suit me. I also found that the SWR 550 and GK 800RB ARE loud enough. I probably should have paid more attention to what cabs were hooked up now that I think about it, but the 800RB seemed REAL loud!

    I came away thinking about two possible options. One is the used GK 800RB for 379.00. I think I may be able to get one off Ebay for a bit less and not have to pay sales tax. I also need to check GC's return policy for used equipment and see if they will come even close to a fair trade in allowance on my 2004. I think mine may work ok for what it is since I tried a 2004 in the store and it distorted when I cranked it up too. Not as bad as mine does but I was in a pretty small area at the store. If I got the 800RB with its high/low amp range, could I put the 115 on the low channel and the 210 on the high channel, or is the high channel for horns only? Looks like the crossover frequency is adjustable but I have no idea what the range is. Or what it would need to be =P.

    Another possibility might be the 400 or 600 watt Crown power amp. Not very much money at all but I don't know if those are crap or any good for bass or what. I don't even know if they have the proper frequency range. I looked at a 402 and 602 but really didn't know what I needed so didn't learn much from that. If those are good amps, would I be able to use my Workingman for a preamp? Use the DI from the head to the power amp or something? Oh gee, then to look at the power amps on the MF website just makes my head hurt. Maybe I need to get the QSC RMX 850 Power Amp . And again, if I do that, should I put the 210 on one channel and the 115 on the other or what? AAAUGH!!




    Yeah I'm such a noob, I know...