police brutality

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by jonas_oxide, Jul 1, 2005.

  1. in brantford ontario canada at 2:06 last night I (and about 30 others, only about 11 are willing to stand up) saw a guy get beat down by 4 cops for "resisting arrest". what happened was this guy comes out of this bar, gets suckered by another guy he doesnt even know. there just happens to be a cop there so he goes to help, another two cops just pull over and try to arrest the guy that got jumped, but he didnt do anything, and was way drunk so all he said was no, and turtled against the huge fist hurtling toward his face. apparently that was resisting arrest. then a girl standing by started yelling at them from about 6 feet away, and for that (all she said was he didnt deserve any of this because he did nothing wrong) I saw the stream of pepper spray hit her right in the open eye. just for saying buddy was innocent. then another 3 ppl got arrested cviolently for being there. one guy was just standing there talking to a friend of his about it, was approached by a cop who promptly told him he had three seconds to leave, he counted to 3 in about 1 second, and after two the guy backed away, but still got tackled and arrested.

    I know that none of you know me, and im just another guy that goes online to look at bassporn and learn about his hobby, but i had to share this, and you are the biggest community i know.

    it sickens me to think that in 20 years, my unborn daughter could be just standing somewhere and get hurt by the guys that used to come to our schools and tell us not to be bullies. i am not a big man, or an experienced man, but i could easily have taken down that one drunk guy alone. I am 6 foot 2 and 210 lbs. every one of the 4 cops that were on him outweighed me by at least 45 lbs, plus are trained to use deadly force. why did they need so many to subdue a harmless drunk dude in his 20's. som, all you legal dudes out there on tb. please help me. i have more than 10 ppl willing to stand up to these cops, we want to write a letter to the paper, but dont really know what else to do , one guy was threatened to be blacklisted for standing up just last night, but if those who uphold the law put me or my family in danger, ill never be able to look at all the beautiful creations you guys play, or the music i love or my wifes voice. you know where im going here, so please help me find out what i can do, it was a sickening, embarrassing, pugilistic display and i dont want it to happen again.
  2. syciprider

    syciprider Banned

    May 27, 2005
    Inland Empire
    The badge corrupts some folks. Happens everywhere.
  3. j-raj

    j-raj Bassist: Educator/Soloist/Performer Staff Member Supporting Member

    Jan 14, 2003
    Atlanta, GA!
    sorry to hear about that jonas... I can't even start with how this would anger me.
  4. but im talking 7 to 10 cops with a crowd of 30 saying that if everyone didnt leave the paddywagon was coming, and big enough for everyone. its sick, they arent even humans to me, just huge musclebound falluses seeking to prove their training on anyone they can
  5. DaveDeVille

    DaveDeVille ... you talkin' to me ?? Supporting Member

    dude , that whole story is very disturbing .
    resisting arrest is one thing , but beating the crap out of someone like that is just wrong .

    first of all , please don't try to take the law into your own hands .
    those cops will mess you up and you'll have gained nothing ...

    second , i would write letters , or e-mail , to local newspapers and news stations .
    somebody on their staff should want to make a story out of this ...
    did anybody get pictures of this attack ?

    sorry you had to experience the worst of humanity like that .
  6. Vince S.

    Vince S. Resident Former Bassist

    Jan 24, 2003
    Jonas Oxide: Sorry you had to experience something like that. I wouldn't recommend taking action since like DM said, it would draw unwanted attention to you. If the guy who got beat up decides to file a formal complaint/go to court, you might want to go in as a witness since you saw the whole thing unfold.

    Or, you and the others there could write a formal letter to the Chief of Police, or even better, the city council/mayor.

    Good luck, and be safe.

  7. JTbass


    Jul 2, 2004
    Asutin TX
    Talk to some lawyers.
  8. Ugly situation, but the cops don't always know what's really happening. You saw stuff they didn't. Its like a doctor doing triage. You see a fight, the drunk guy is usually the bad guy. Don't have time to sort it out, they must contain the situation quickly and figure it out later.

    People don't realize cops are legally authorized to use any amount of force necessary to effect an arrest. They are also supposed to use the minimum amount necessary, but that's a harder standard to enforce. Basically the more you resist the more force they can apply until you submit. That doesn't mean they have to go tit for tat, gradually increasing force in a delicate ballet with the suspect. If they resist, squash it quickly, overwhelmingly before they get a lucky punch in. I'm sure lots of (rookie) cops see people going "Wait, no, man, I'm innocent" who quickly turn to suckerpunching them. It doesn't happen the 2nd time.

    If you're in that situation, don't argue and resist, at all. Walk away when they tell you, or if being arrested for something you didn't do, hold out your arms, let them cuff you, THEN tell them what happened, calmly and non-confrontationally. Maybe they won't listen until you get to the station anyway, but at least you won't get beat up in the process. You've got some credibility if you submit calmly, stay cool and rational. Righteous indignation that you're innocent doesn't do you any good. They're all innocent.

    You've got a potentially hostile mob of 30 there, with only 3 cops. IF they don't take control quickly and it gets out of hand, they may be overpowered, they're way outnumbered. Better to crack down on the first one or two to show any signs of problem to make everyone else thinks twice about jumping in. The alternative could be them getting overpowered, possibly either losing their weapons or forced to shoot people to prevent that. What you saw may have been the lesser of 2 evils. Large crowds of likely drunk people watching a fight is a very volatile situation, can turn into a major brawl very quickly.

    I wasn't there, so I'm not defending what they did, just trying to provide what might have been their viewpoint. You know the whole situation, its obvious to you they overreacted. Its not as obvious to them at that moment without the info you possess.

    Just to be clear, for instance the Rodney King thing, they were way out of line, in my opinion. Same for Malice Green here in Detroit. My take in both cases they clearly continued beating way after the suspect was subdued, quit resisting. The cops deserved what they got, the suspects didn't. (Eventually got in RK case, they shouldn't have been acquitted the first time). Others may disagree, none of us were there, we can't be 100% sure.

  9. Let me rephrase... I was incorrect. Police are legally REQUIRED to use any amount of force necessary to effect an arrest. If someone wants to go 9 rounds over a minor arrest, they don't have the option of backing down and saying its not worth beating this guy up over this.

  10. Toasted


    May 26, 2003
    Leeds, UK
    Well, I for one bet that there's two sides to this story and we've only been presented with one.
  11. cheezewiz


    Mar 27, 2002
    I see the bait being dangled in front of me, and although it looks very tasty, I'm turning tail and swimming away........
  12. Gard

    Gard Commercial User

    Mar 31, 2000
    Greensboro, NC, USA
    General Manager, Roscoe Guitars
    Pets Pat on head...

    "...good sharky, good sharky...


    Seen bad stuff happen on both sides, sucks, either way. :(
  13. that says alot doesn't it?

    I grew up around Brantford/Paris area (actually Simcoe),, I KNOW what can happen outside of those bars,,(and I haven't been around for 20 years) I would imagine the police do as well.. people tend to think they are bigger and tougher than they really are with a few into em.. and they tend to think they are above the law too..

    not saying this is the case,, but seen enough similar scenes to make a pretty acurate guess of what those "30" may have been doing...
  14. RicPlaya


    Apr 22, 2003
    Whitmoretucky MI
    Another police brutality thread.......go figure, big surprise. Los Angeles, Detroit, Brantford On...happens everywhere. People need to stand up to the B.S.. If your by yourself you are screwed, organize all the people involved. Speak all at once, if you are alone in this you could be singled out by the bad cops.
  15. Absolutely. Its one thing to have an intellectual discussion about it on the internet, and another to be out there outnumbered with your butt on the line.

    Even the girl that got pepper sprayed. Open shut case? Not so sure.... Hard to tell the difference between some girl approaching you yelling "No... no" who's just trying to tell you you missed something, and the suspects crazy girlfriend who'll jump on your back and stab you in the neck with a pen if you turn your back on her. Both agitated, both coming at you fast, you can't discern motives instantly. Spray is annoying, painful, but ultimately no permanent harm.

    Cops could have been at fault, or not, can't really tell unless, and maybe even if, you were there to witness the whole thing.

    Definitely a shame it happened. But cops can make mistakes without being criminally liable for them, they're given lots of leeway cause they don't have the info or the time to sort everything out.

    Like firemen. Can't wait to see which ember is going to spark a fire, you have to douse anything that sparkles. With the least amount of force necessary to ensure the job gets done, yes. Not easy to know what that might be on a moments notice. Things that turn out to be obvious later aren't always obvious when they occur.

  16. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    I've found that most police are well trained and sensitive people.

    I live out here in LA, and I've had plenty of run-ins with the LAPD. In most cases, I've been treated with a courtesy that's truly amazing (and somewhat unexpected).

    In one case though, I got beaten with a flashlight, and my buddy got his motorcycle rendered unusable.

    That's why we pay our government to provide "oversight", and "training", IMO. All these darn pinko commie liberals, are probably doing something good for us in the long run, IMO.

    But there's always a few bad apples that'll slip between the cracks. And the "human nature" aspect of that is, that they'll always hang out in packs.

    You can kinda tell what kind of cop you're going to get, when you stick your hands out of the car window, and they're in plain sight. That initial response will tell you everything you need to know. If it doesn't look good, don't press it. That's my take. :D
  17. Good points...

    turn on inside dome light at night, make sure he can see you clearly as he approaches.
    keep hands in sight.
    move slow
    If its easily accessible, have lic/reg in hand ready otherwise wait till asked.

    Do not root around in glovebox for lic/reg while cop is approaching. He could think you're going for a gun.
    Do not root around in your back pocket for lic/reg while he's approaching if (like me ) you have big wallet, hard to get out.
    Do not smart off

    If he smells a lie, you're getting a ticket. If you made an honest mistake, admit it. you may get a break.

    One thing about arrests... cops don't want to end up wrestling around on the ground, in a situation where they could lose control of their weapon. So they want the arrest to go quickly, without problems. They want to be sure you don't put up a struggle. Best way is if you submit obviously and quickly.

    Next best way is to put you down fast, minimize the risk to officer and suspect. No long 5 minute struggles covering 14 city blocks like in the movies. The faster you're in cuffs and harmless, the better. That means overwhelming force. Not wailing on you like there's no tomorrow, but hard enough to make sure you go down fast. They're going to throw you down hard. Hit you hard enough to stun you so you go down fast. So you don't have time to go for a weapon, theirs or yours. Note that overwhelming does not equal excessive. That is a perfectly proper arrest, and it may appear brutal, especially if you ran up on the cop to point out something he should know and he thought you were joining the barfight and get your lights put out.

    Excessive, IMO, is when the beating continues when you're on the ground, no longer resisting, in cuffs, at the station house getting sodomized with a broomstick, etc. Rodney King, Malice Green, the Diallo guy from NY.

    A quick hard arrest results in cuts and bruises, sometimes nasty ones. A long drawn out arrest puts everyone involved at more and even deadly risk.

  18. this is what i believe is the case, Ive had good experience with police before, and Im not saying that police are bad ppl. without them it would be a much more dangerous and unpredictable world. Its the abuse of power that weaker minded humans excercise that gets to me. Having to subdue someone to your will to feel good about yourself or what you're doing. or whatever reason, im not a psychologist.

    I just hate seeing people being evil because they can. i hadnt considered their position in the situation the way they would have been trained to see it. but you gotta be able to read at least some people right? we are not machines programmed to react a certain way in any given situation. to be treated as such is unfair, and inhumane.

    And the girl that got sprayed displayed no threat of physical harm in any way to anyone, she raised her voice to be loud enough to be heard but was not yelling at him. I just wish that it didnt have to be like that I guess. you should be legally allowed to speak, as long as it's not in a threatening manner.

    Ultimately, you werent there, and I know there is another side to the story, i called the guy who was hanging out with the man that got beaten, i guess what happened was that after whatever happened with the guy who hit him, he tapped the cop on the shoulder to show him his nose or whatever, that he had been hit, and the cop just turned around and decked him without looking or warning or anything. I can understand that cops reaction, from a defensive standpoint, but after the first shot there was lots of opportunity to cuff him. he was turtling because every time he let his arms out he would het hit, so he held them in.
    even if it took 2 cops to hold him, and one to cuff him, they did not FOR ANY REASON need to beat him further. they were not doing it to protect themselves. If they had spray, why not administer a healthy dose. that would have been at least as effective.
    anyway, i AM sorry if I offended anyone. Im not attacking cops, rapists get caught and dealt with because of you. I appreciate you. but man, you gotta be able to read people to at least some degree. everyone is not a threat.
  19. Hollow Man

    Hollow Man Supporting Member

    Apr 28, 2003
    Springfield, VA
    It all comes down to one's point of view at the time of the incident. It's a lock that the cops and the citizens/spectators involved would tell completely different stories, and neither party would have to be lying to do so. I'm sure the girl who got sprayed would never have harmed the cop, even if she could have, but that officer had no way of knowing at the time. Officers get killed in way more 'routine' settings than that, and I can't promise that I wouldn't have done the same thing in the same setting. Of course, I would never do anything to harm an unarmed girl, but in a 3-on-potentially-30 situation, you do what you have to do to restore order and get everyone out alive.
  20. For my part, I wasnt' offended in the least, you saw something that was really disturbing to you. I didn't mean to come off defensive, just wanted to try to show it in a different light. I'm not even trying to assert that they did nothing wrong, matter of fact. Like you said, I wasn't there, I don't know. Just wanted to give you another perspective to view the situation from. If taking that into consideration, you still think it was excessive, you were there, I respect that. In that case you should do whatever you feel comfortable with regarding reporting it. At least maybe be a witness for the guy that got beat up originally, so he's not treated as the bad guy in the original situation. Hopefully the resisting arrest (and if they pile on assaulting an officer) can be knocked off if they have enough evidence it was accidental and he wasn't the instigator of the whole thing.

    The key problem was the 3 on 30 situation, bar crowd, likely drunk, with at least a couple of confirmed belligerent drunks fighting that started it. At that point anybody getting in your "personal space" and especially approaching from the rear is a potential threat regardless. I think at that point they were in Mama Bear protecting their cubs mode. The family jewels being the cubs in this scenario... :D

    Those situations can get out of hand quickly, fine line between stopping a riot by making an example of the first few involved (taking the crowd out of it), and sparking a riot by being too aggressive (getting the crowd pissed enough to come "out of the stands and onto the field of play").