Preamp Tone Completely Different from F-1X

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by bgavin, Aug 18, 2001.

  1. I'm thinking about a second preamp that has completely different tone from my Alebmic F-1X.

    I'm not into distortion, but am looking for something fundamentally different from the F-1X tone.

  2. Steve


    Aug 10, 2001
    Mr. Gavin,
    If you're going after the tone from your website that you mentioned on another forum....
    I can pretty much nail that tone (the playing is another matter) with my Grand Prix into an Acme B-4 or with my practice rig which is a Trace Elliot into a pretty damn nice stereo speaker.

    That's a pretty Hi-Fi tone and your whole deal is going to need to be hi- fi to get it. IMHO.

    I don't know what the rest of your rig is but the FX should do it it you have the right bass and cab.

    And a brand new set of DR hi-beams

    Just a thought...

    Excuse me, I just snooped through your profile and took a look at your rig. Unless you left something out, you need to go higher than what the e-110's are capable of to get those glassy sounding Hi's.
    Way higher. Like 10K+
  3. ThePaste

    ThePaste Guest

    Dec 23, 2000
    West Virginia USA
    Three questions

    1 Can the Grand Prix get distortion???

    2 What sound file are you guys talking about?

    3 Is the Grand Prix really hi-fi?
  4. Steve


    Aug 10, 2001
    1 Can the Grand Prix get distortion???
    You can MAKE it distort, but that not really it's forte.

    2 What sound file are you guys talking about? it's the Bach piece. I think, that's for Mr. Gavin to confirm. Thre's a ton of other great stuff as well and well worth a snoop.

    3 Is the Grand Prix really hi-fi?
    I and many others think so, FWIW.

    I've run pink noise through it and with the e.q. flat and the enhancer off, what goes into it as EXACTLY what comes out of it. So by definition I guess thats High Fidelity.

    So are Acme cabinets, and a lot of people don't like 'em
  5. Distortion per se, isn't really what I'm interested in. I don't have a mental image of the differences between the "SWR Sound" and the "Ampeg grit", etc. My F-1X is my first adventure into a separate preamp, and my second bass rig after the original SWR Bass 750 I first owned.

    The Bach thing on my site was more an example of a very clear and detailed tone. Andy recorded it DI to the recorder, so no amp was in the way at all. Just his Lakland and other basses, multi-tracked over each other.

    What I'm hunting for is the ability to switch between two preamps in my rack to go between the ultra-clarity HiFi sound at one end to ??? on the opposite end of the spectrum.

    I am very willing to accept any MP3 from anybody who wants to contribute "their sound" to the community. Lots of folks are interested in hearing what a Roscoe Beck 5 string sounds like... but I have to figure out how to record it.
  6. Steve


    Aug 10, 2001
    There is a one rack space pre-amp that:
    1. Sounds nothing like an Alembic
    2. Is Cheap
    3. Is VERY flexible
    4. Is tough as nails
    5. Sounds good

    It's name is Peavey, "and I've just completely shot my credibility"

    They're a little noisy for studio work but fine for live.
  7. The E110s are good to 8,000 Hz. The 22nd fret of the bass G string is approximately 349 Hz. Even if the 16th harmonic is present (doubtful) the frequency of the 16th harmonic is 5584 Hz. Therefore, if I were playing notes on the 22nd fret of my high G string, I need a driver that can reproduce up to 5584 Hz.

    This link is a very good explanation of the first 16 harmonics.
  8. Steve


    Aug 10, 2001
    I agree with you completely. In theory. I wouldn't even consider an alternate viewpiont were it not for my recent experiences with Acme and Bartolini.

    The Acme goes up to 22k with the tweeter being crossed at 10k. Nobody could have convinced me that there was any worthwile bass content up there until I myself turned the hi freq. attenuator all the way down. There is DEFINATELY stuff you want up there. To my ear anyway.

    Much to my surprise when I got my new Bart pre-amp. The specs. said the treble shelf point was 10k.
    So I was thinking that with every one else's treble shelving around 4-5k "What's up with that?"

    I figures Bill and Pat knows more'n me so's I try it.

    It works, and it works better with a cabinet that can get to it.

    My brain can't quite figure it out, but my ears can.

    Grab yourself a decent stereo speaker and run the Rosco Beck through it and let me know what you think. As always, I could be full of it.
  9. I'll do it. I have a great set of Pioneers (horrors!) that I bought strictly on a "by-ear" basis. Loved 'em for years, and love 'em still. I can hook them up fairly easily, and will give 'em a spin.
  10. Nightbass


    May 1, 2001
    Seattle, WA
    Right on, man. There have been a few studies on the spectral analysis of 4-string basses, and I believe all of them found nothing beyond 5000 Hz.

  11. Phat Ham

    Phat Ham

    Feb 13, 2000
    If you slap or pop there's some sounds from the strings hitting the frets and sounds from your fingers hitting the strings that are really high frequency.
  12. Steve


    Aug 10, 2001
    "There have been a few studies on the spectral analysis of 4-string basses, and I believe all of them found nothing beyond 5000 Hz."

    Well...I guess that explains why My Grand Prix shelves at 5k, my bartolini HR5.4 shelves at 10k and the e.q. on my Trace Elliot goes to 15k.

    It's obvious, everybody engineers their gear to accentuate frequencies that don't exist.

    Maybe those studies were done with a bass strung with flatwounds.

    Maybe there isn't anything above 5k and having a tweeter just takes some of the burden off the woofers so that what is there get articulated better.

    If you have an active bass and are looking for a "modern" tone, a tweeter of some sort has value.

    To state otherwise would be a courageous stance indeed. IMHO of course.
  13. Actually, I would like to hear from a preamp design engineer who can explain why they need something higher than 5500 Hz +/- for a bass rig. I don't find anything documented for harmonics higher than the 16th order. Granted a bass with a C or higher string will go farther up the scale, but the 16th harmonic another full octave up from G string 22nd fret would stop at 11 KHz.

    The tweeters used in these cabs go much higher than 5500 Hz.. whether or not this is actually used is moot. IMO the tweeter upper limit is so very high, it is included in the frequency response specifications. Big number, looks good on paper.. :D

    As to flats vs rounds, the 16th order harmonic is the same no matter what string type. What is different, is rounds will squeak more. As pointed out previously, finger noise, slapping percussion, taps, etc, are very likely much higher. Distortion also pushes up the frequency, as many cab makers advise turning the tweeter down or off. Tube "grit", fuzz boxes, etc, generates harmonics far above the highest bass fundamental, and I suspect is the real reason behind needing a full range upper response.

    And then there are all those distortion-prone guitar players with instruments that go much higher than electric bass, and many play a Fender Twin with no tweeter... go figure.
  14. Steve


    Aug 10, 2001

    "There are harmonics well above the noise floor up to about 1kHz, around the 25th harmonic, and that's on the unfretted low E string with a fairly smooth plucked sound."

    There is an acompanying ocsiliscope screen shot

    From Walter Harley's site. He's way smarter than I.

    Maybe I'm not understanding, and certainly there are times when I'm so far beyond stupid that it would take the light from stupid a thousand years to reach me, but what I'm hearing is this.

    No bass content above 5K = most treble controls are useless. Having one that shelves at 10K is useless x 2

    From my experience with parametric e.q., I find that finger squeek and fret clacking is around 4-5k and I get more of it if I use my GRAND PRIX e.q. which shelves at 5k.

    If I use the 10K band on my bass I get a much lower percentage of garbage for my treble.

    Very respectfully, IMHO and I am very much enjoying the civilized exchange of alternate points of view. It's a rare thing.

    Keep it coming. I love "tone talk"
  15. W. Harley makes an excellent point about distortion introducing higher harmonics, and backs it up with his scope work. His work is the first I've seen on harmonics higher than 16th order being present in electric bass signals. Doing the math, this means the G string, 22nd fret, 25th harmonic would be 8750 Hz at the absolute highest.

    I bet bassists who slap, use distortion or effects boxes have a lot of experience with those high frequency treble controls you mentioned. I don't fit this catagory at all, so my needs are satisfied by my E110s up to 8 KHz.
  16. Steve


    Aug 10, 2001
    I'm still interested in your thoughts as to whether you notice any difference in the tonal quality of your Rosco going through your pioneer as it relates to the high end.

    Both I and my Acme hate distortion and avoid it as much as possible. Presently most of my work is country and bluegrass so needless to say I don't slap much. Certainly the difference is MUCH more noticable when I do but the difference is significant fingerstyle as well.
    But then, I do so love my top end and push as much as my technique will allow. Which is alot.
  17. ThunderStik

    ThunderStik Guest

    Jun 25, 2001
    Claremore OK.
    bgavin: A buddy is going to loan me an eden 115 and an swr goliath so I will give you a review of the svp-pro shortly as I have yet to figure out which cab to go with on the new rig.
  18. Cool! I'm a 5-string banjo player since 1970. I'd like to fit a sh*it-kickin band in Sacramento, but nothing comes up, so I'm playing with a blues band for the time being.

    If I get time this weekend, I'll hook one of the HiFi full range cabs to my rig to see what it sounds like. One of my buds down in Texas says his Demeter is significantly different sounding than his F-1X.