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problem with cabs "clipping"

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by nicolas, Mar 13, 2008.


  1. nicolas

    nicolas

    Jul 6, 2006
    Belgium
    this is my setup:

    genz benz gbe 1200
    eden 210
    eden 118

    these are the older eden models, not the newer xlt/xst series. both cabs are 8 ohm so I run my GB at 4 ohm which is supposed to turn out 1000w. both cabs' power handling is around 300-400w. now when playing at louder volumes, my cabs seem to be "clipping" from time to time. like a "clic" kind of sound. I know it's not the amp that's clipping since it's barely at 3, everybody knows how ridiculously loud these GB amps go. I already put a dbx compressor in the fx loop and that seemed to help a bit but I still get the clic sound occasionally. very annoying. I'm also not sure which of the two cabs is producing the problem. are my cabs too weak?
     
  2. Rob Mancini

    Rob Mancini Guest

    Feb 26, 2008
    Possibly. You could also be slamming your input somewhere like goosing active controls all the way up or too much level on the compressor or something like that. Have you tried setting everything flat and seeing what happens?
     
  3. Big chance that your cabs are too weak: a load of 800watt @4ohm on an amp of 1000watt@4ohm (RMS) ...
     
  4. I remembering easily bottoming out my old 210XLT with my WT300.... you could easily push those drivers to reach the limit of their excursion with relatively low power, causing that 'clicking' sound, especially with a bit of low end rolled in. not good.

    I think you just have too much iron for those particular cabs IMO and IME. If you dig the Eden cab tone, the 210XST is much more robust and can really take some punishment.

    Many also love the 1200 with the Genz Neo212, which would save you some weight also.
     
  5. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    A couple of comments here before your speakers get damaged.

    First, the GBE-1200 delivers a lot of real power into a reactive load, so compared with many other amps you may be driving them considerably harder than you realize. Do you have the output limiter engaged on the amp? This will help some. Is the output clip/limit light flashing while the speakers are clicking? You may be driving the amp harder than you think as well, it will deliver well over 1000 watts when limiting.

    Second, many older cabinets and driver combinations (by all manufacturers) suffered from driver unloading at very low frequencies, meaning the excursion of the driver exceeds the safe displacement and the click you are hearing is the end ofthe voice coil former striking the back plate of the magnet structure. This is generally exaggerated by low frequency boosy. You may not want to use the LF boost function or a lot of low freq. eq if you need to get loud. Your cabinet may not be able to handle this and all that will happen is that at some point the drivers will fail.
     
  6. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    It's probably the tens bottoming out, as they likely won't go as low or loud as the eighteen before the coils hit the backplate. The problem isn't a weak 2x10 per se, just that you have no way of keeping the lowest frequencies that don't bother the 1x18 out of the 2x10. Sealing the 2x10 tight might help.
     
  7. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    I agree with Bill, it's most likely the 10's, but you might wantt o double-check thatit's not a 4 ohm 210 pair or 18" driver by mistake. I just troubleshot another similar problem for a customer and turns out he had the drivers wired wrong (somebody may have done a switcheroo on him) and was shutting down an amp because he had a 2 ohm load on a 410 cabinet rather than an 8ohm load.

    Worth a look. You should read a DC resistance of about 5-6 ohms each cabinet if the cabinets are really 8 ohms.
     
  8. tolson36

    tolson36

    Oct 20, 2003
    another possible explanation.

    I have noticed with all cabs and all amps I have ever had that you can get kind of a clicking sound when you really dig into the strings--and that's with a passive bass

    I have experimented with rolling off all the mids and high frequencies leaving just the lows and the sound disappears--even after raising the level to make up for the overall level

    If it was really bottoming out (which is a mechanical noise) I would have thought that lowering the mids/highs would have no impact, but it eliminates it. In my case I'm convinced there is an artifact that lies in the mids and is more prevalent in the flatwounds I play and especially when I dig-in. It's not fret noise.

    so I speculate that the sound "could" be something in the mids---may be slight clipping--perhaps it's in the input stages or the electronics in general and not mechanical "bottoming"

    I just wouldn't be too quick to assume that's what it is--might want to experiment a little. If it can be Eq'ed out, I would think it's not a mechanical noise.
     
  9. Rob Mancini

    Rob Mancini Guest

    Feb 26, 2008
    No offense tolson, but I'm going with the Genz Benz engineer and the audio physicist ;)
     
  10. tolson36

    tolson36

    Oct 20, 2003
    ok---but I don't know how anyone could diagnose a problem from a user description of a clicking noise. But feel free to go with it dude.

    Interesting though that your first inclination was along the same lines. Shouldn't be so quick to declare yourself incorrect. ;)

    This was not to say they weren't correct but I have had that (clicking) in speakers for years when digging in and haven't lost a speaker--ever. A clicking noise could either be --as you said--driving part of the input chain hard--or I suppose bottoming of a speaker.

    That's why with a new cab--or configuration, one of the first things I do is rolloff everything but the lows and determine how much low the speaker can handle--then bring up the mids and adjust the overall volume.
     
  11. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    It is possible that it's a mechanical artifact of the bass, but I assumed that had been ruled out.
     
  12. Rob Mancini

    Rob Mancini Guest

    Feb 26, 2008
    There's a big difference between driving an input hard and digging in and clacking the strings. I was operating on the assumption that the OP knew the difference.

    Anyway, once agedhorse and Bill chimed in, I figured they knew what they were talking about and let them take over. Anyway, don't mind me...I've been mad at my kids tonight ;)
     
  13. tolson36

    tolson36

    Oct 20, 2003
    ""There's a big difference between driving an input hard and digging in and clacking the strings.""

    I agree with that, but I'm not sure I can hear as big a difference between "clacking strings", and "overexcursion". I do have to admit that his description of "occasional clic" probably would be the excursion issue. It's a different sound but I could see how someone could mistake the two. As I know I did myself before, and is why I went to the bother of ruling out other causes. Once you know you have heard a speaker bottom out--it's easier to hear the difference. I'd call it a much sharper click that really sounds like metal hitting metal. More like hitting clavs together perhaps? More of a pop?

    I play TI jazz flats and I have learned to live with the clanky sound they have when driven hard realizing that they probably aren't that audible to the crowd.

    My only point was though that mechanical (bottoming out) could be ruled out (ruled-in) by EQing. Sorry if I seemed testy at all.
     
  14. nicolas

    nicolas

    Jul 6, 2006
    Belgium
    well it happens when I aggressively pluck my low B string so yeah it's probably a problem in the lower registers. my bass is a stingray 5 btw.

    KJung: I was looking at GB cabs as well, but they're not available on the used market here yet ;)

    I know a guy who's selling a markbass std 106, which has a power rating of 1200w. maybe this will solve my problem? I've never played through neodymium speakers yet though.
     
  15. Fretlessboy

    Fretlessboy

    Nov 29, 2007
    St Augustine Florida
    Endorsing artist GENZ BENZ/HERCULES STANDS/XSonics
    it would appear to me that if you rolled off mids and highs you would also be rolling of some the clack that is audio not physical... I may be wronge 'cause my ex wife said I was more often than not.
     
  16. nicolas

    nicolas

    Jul 6, 2006
    Belgium
    I'll take your word over your ex-wife's and try rolling off mids and highs first
     
  17. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    If you're problem is excursion derived a higher power rating might not make any differnence, as power handing and excursion are two different factors and the one doesn't have any relationship to the other. To be sure it will make any difference try it before you buy it.
     

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