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Problems with Ampeg 610HLF

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by phogchris, May 26, 2003.


  1. phogchris

    phogchris www.scarsoflife.com

    May 27, 2000
    Boca Raton, FL
    I seem to get a farting noise when I play low A, B or C. I have the Ultra LO button on(+2.5@50HZ), the bass at 9 o'clock(about -6), but the bass(40HZ) on my ZON half way past center. I also have the graphic EQ on, but the 30HZ slider all the way down. Doing this helps a bit, but there is still farting. Also, I run the bass in the passive style input, not the -15.

    Does anyone know the tuning frequency of this cab? Am I putting too many low frequencies into it? Also, can I use the biamp feature with one cab to cut all the frequencies below 50HZ?


    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    At a guess, I'd say that cab is tuned to somewhere between 40 and 50 Hz. I base this guess on the fact that a pro audio 10" speaker almost never has a resonant frequency lower than 41 Hz. I realise you've got 6 of em and that creates more bottom end, but the Fs of the cab remain unchanged wether you've got 1 speaker or 6.

    Low A has a fundamental of about 28Hz.That's a long way below 40Hz. If you ever get the chance to look at a graph of speaker cone excursion, you'll notice that the speaker's movement is at it's greatest when fed frequencies below the tuned frequency of the cab. Naturally the problem is made worse the louder you play. I believe that your problem lies here.

    I'm also a bit curious about your decision to use the hot input. If you have a good understanding of gain structure and clipping, than go for it. Does your amp have a clip light?
     
  3. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    oops forgot to adress this question.
    It's worth a shot. But I feel that you may not like it. Your low notes will probably become thin and lose volume. Remember that your open 4th string E note has a fundamental of 41Hz, so you'd be chopping out a lot.

    Would you consider a second cab, mabye an 18"? Some 15's would kinda get you there, but not many.
     
  4. phogchris

    phogchris www.scarsoflife.com

    May 27, 2000
    Boca Raton, FL
    What benefits will I receive from using the -15db input? I currently have to put the gain up to about 3/4 to get the clip light to blink on hard played notes. My signal goes through my wireless before it hits the front end of my amp. I really don't know too much about gain structures and whatnot. Also, I like having to only lug around one cabinet, so adding an 18 or 15 may not work for me. Thanks .
     
  5. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    Fair enough. I was just checking. It was possible that you may have been sending too strong a signal to the pre-amp section of the amp, hence my question about the clip light. But that part looks ok now.
     
  6. jawzzz

    jawzzz

    May 23, 2003
    Denver Colorado
    I have a 610 hlf hooked up to a SVT IV with the ultra low on, bass around 2 o'clock, and gain around 3 o'clock, and I have not had this problem. I am using an ibanez BTB 5, which is all active, but I keep the bass and treble centered, only boosting the lower-mids slightly. I know a Zon is a better bass, but it sounds to me like you might have a blown speaker. Frequency response is 53 to 18 khz @ -3 db, with a usable low of 42 hz @ -10 db.
     
  7. phogchris

    phogchris www.scarsoflife.com

    May 27, 2000
    Boca Raton, FL
    The speakers seem fine, it seems as though the sound is coming from the port area at the bottom.
     
  8. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    are you playing low A or B notes?

    if you haven't blown a speaker yet, you soon will if these specs are correct, and it will happen while you're on the 5th string. Sorry Chris I know that's not what you wanna hear.

    Hey how's your album going. Last count it was up to 250,000 sales?
     
  9. jawzzz

    jawzzz

    May 23, 2003
    Denver Colorado
    I went to the ampeg site to get those specs, and they match up to my cab, I assume that the specs have not changed through out the past few years at least. Pete, yes, I do play the low a's and b's, probally more than I should. :) That was one of the selling points of the cab, was it's low fequency response, that is supposed to be ideal for a 5 string bass,according to ampeg. If I boost the bass eq on my ibanez, It will start to give the speaker the so called "farting" sound, but I have found that true on most bass cabs I have played. There is such thing as "too much bass" if can believe that. ;)
     
  10. phogchris

    phogchris www.scarsoflife.com

    May 27, 2000
    Boca Raton, FL
    Actually that was just the amount of CD's bands I have been in have sold. I think the SEV CD did about 50,000, but I decided to leave.

    About the cab...I totally understand what you are saying about blowing speakers, but is there anything i can do now to prolong the speakers' lives?
     
  11. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    We haven't proved my theory correct yet. Does anyone else have anything to offer?

    Have you tried using the crossover to cut the frequencies below 50Hz? How did that sound? I remember reading in "The loudspeaker design cookbook" that a subsonic filter can prevent speaker over-excursion, though they're not used in practice. I tried making a passive one for a 2x10 I build and it kinda worked but not good enough. I'm still trying to fix it up and if I get it right, maybe we could organise one at a frequency that both sounds good and protects your speakers.

    The other alternative is not to play the low notes that cause the fart, so I guess that's not really an alternative is it?

    I know you're not keen on another speaker cab, but let me put it to you this way. I used 6x10's for years (Nemisis 4x10 with an Eden 210xlt). And was happy enough with it. But the 5th string always sounded "vauge" so I didn't use it much.

    One day I dragged out my old JBL E145 (it's a 15" with a resonant frequency of 35Hz) and it really was a case of OH MY GOD!!!!!! The fifth string came to life. Not only that, I found that to get the punchy crisp sound that I was accustoned to, I had to cut the bottoms with the EQ. The result is that the 10's (sometimes 2, sometimes 4) get fed little bottom end and therefore don't fart. The 10's take the mid-bass upwards and the 15 takes the midbass downwards. Full range (almost), loud, punchy, and no farting. And I can thump the low B without worrying about the speakers jumping out of the basket.
     
  12. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    I've attached an example of a typical speaker cone excursion graph.

    For this dummy speaker, the red line represents Xmax, the point where the speaker is moving further than it should. This cab is tuned to 75 Hz.

    You'll notice the speaker barely moves at all at high frequencies. It also moves very little at 75Hz because that's what the box is tuned to. But have a look at how far the speaker moves below 75 Hz.......

    Now you know why I'm experimenting with sub-sonic filters.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. cb56

    cb56

    Jul 2, 2000
    Central Illinois
    I've been blasting my 1000 watt B4R through my Ampeg 610hlf using my Warwick Thumb 5 just about every weekend for over a year now. No farting noises and no blown speakers yet. I must be doing something wrong. :bawl:
     
  14. phogchris

    phogchris www.scarsoflife.com

    May 27, 2000
    Boca Raton, FL
    Will adding an Acme Low B2W help with the low end, or is it a waste if money because it will be too quiet?

    Here are the specs:

    Model: Acme Low B-2 Series II
    Frequency response: +/-3 dB 41Hz to 1 kHz -6 dB at 31 Hz
    Power Handling: 350 Watts RMS continuous
    300 Watts sine wave @ 30.87 Hz
    Sensitivity: 93 dB 1W/1M
    Impedance: Available in 4 or 8 ohms
    Dimensions: 23"H x 15.75"W x 16.5"D
    Weight: 50 lbs / 23.2 kg

    So from that I deduce that it will reproduce a low E well, but a low B not so well? Or I can add an ampeg 18. Here are its specs:

    Frequency Response (-3 dB) : 35-18kHz
    Maximum SPL : 130dB
    Nominal Impedance : 4 Ohms
    Program Handling : 1000
    RMS Handling : 500
    Sensitivity : 97dB
    Usable Low Frequency (-10dB) : 28 Hz

    IF these are accurate, it can handle the B better, and is more than twice as loud, correct?
     
  15. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    The Acme should reproduce the low B quite well. -6dB isn't too bad. Your current rig is probably -12 or more.And it should do it without the speaker moving too far. However, the 93dB sensitivity could be a problem while running in conjuction with a speaker can with a higher sensitivity. To get the two cabs producing similar volume, you'd have to run the Ampeg 6x10 speaker from your existing amp, then run the Acme from a seperate, more powerful amp.

    The Ampeg 18 would work better to solve your problem. I dunno that it's twice as loud as the Acme because the Acme didnt publigh a maximum dB figure. But it won't need as many watts driving it, so should therefore produce more volume given the same number of watts.

    We also have to consider the issue of nominal impedance. The Ampeg 18 looks like it only comes in a 4 ohm cab? What is your 6x10 rated at? What's the minimum ohms your amp can handle? I presume you are planning to run both speakers from your existing amp?


    PS:- while I'm here......I've made progress on the sub-sonic filter. I've found a place in Australia that can supply the air-cored inductors I've been trying so hard to find. Funnily enough they're rare here but common in the US. I'll trial it and if it works, we should have no trouble organising one for you. If it works......
     
  16. phogchris

    phogchris www.scarsoflife.com

    May 27, 2000
    Boca Raton, FL
    I think the impedance won't be a problem, I am currently only using one side of my SVT4Pro, so I can run the 18 off the other channel. The 610 is 4 ohms as is the 18. I just need to save up some $$$ now...lol!!! Thanks for all your help.
     
  17. phogchris

    phogchris www.scarsoflife.com

    May 27, 2000
    Boca Raton, FL
  18. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    Its sensitivity is only 94dB @1W1m; you'd be better off with the Ampeg 1x18". Have you considered the Acme Low-B4W? That's at least as efficient as the Ampeg 1x18" (Acme's specs are very conservative) and will have a lot more low-end slam. You could run it with one side of your SVT4 for the moment (get a 4 ohm Acme) and when you can afford it add a lightweight power amp that bridges 1000W-1500W into 4 ohms.

    Alex
     
  19. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    yeah 94dB kinda spoils it. See it's a 15 trying to be an 18. I'll try to explain my take on speakers:-

    There's a tradeoff on every speaker made between frequency, sensitivity, and size. Most speaker designs will focus on 2 and sacrifice one to achieve their design goal.

    For example, a car audio sub can give you excellent frequency coverage in the really low frequencies (say 35Hz), from a small speaker (say 10 inches). But to do it, they have to sacrifice sensitivity (usually only about 90dB). Makes sense, you're in an enclosed space so massive volume is easier to achieve.

    Pro audio speakers, including bass rigs, require massive volume and therefore need to be more sensitive (say 96dB or more). To do this from a speaker the same size, the only available tradeoff is frequency. So instead of going down to 35Hz, they'll have to make it so it goes down to 55Hz instead.

    This Samson sub has taken the Car sub approach. The frequencies it covers resemble an 18" (30Hz), but it's only a 15" and therefore has to have a lower sensitivity.

    Have I explained that OK?