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Provocation

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by Neb Maro, Dec 10, 2006.


  1. Neb Maro

    Neb Maro I don't think, but I still am.

    Oct 20, 2006
    So. Cali
    How far would you have to be pushed before you actually physically lash out at another guy and thus get embroiled in a brawl or a fight?
    Does thought of legal consenquences prompt you to hold out for much longer than you originally would?
    If the only consenquences for fighting were that you got your butt kicked if you lost, would you still do everything you could to avoid it?
    If there were no consenquences for fighting, how quick would you lash out in hopes of landing the first punch?

    I've been thinking about this, because I think guys are hardwired, to some degree, to fight.
    Because of this, I wonder how much actually dealy violence would occur if guys were just allowed to fight it out instead of always trying to find a reasonable and peaceful means to end conflict. Being reasonable and peaceful are the best ways to end conflicts, but sometimes the bad feelings don't go away. They end up building upon eachother until they explode outward.
    Examples would be kids walking into schools and opening fire, disgruntled employees doing the same at work.

    Fighting isn't the best answer, but if guys are hardwired for it, causing them to have to try to ignore it can't be a good thing.

    Please answer questions first before you critique the rest of my post. Thanks.
     
  2. Personally, I've never been in a fight and hope never to get in one in my life, if I can help it. Provided, I've put on a fair amount of muscle since starting college, and the traveling rings have made me a little faster and more accurate with my hand-eye coordination, and my skateboard is helping a lot with my legs, I currently live by a code of "never throw the first punch," with an additional "I'd rather run the hell away and/or call the cops than get in a fight" that found its way in my mind some time in the past couple years.

    Personally, I don't believe that men are hardwired to fight, though we may not necessarily be hardwired to love, either. I'm a firm believer that the software (i.e. your upbringing) is largely in charge of your thought processes and, therefore, actions.

    However, I also realize that I have never been in a true "fight or flight" situation, so I can't say with any degree of certainty what I'd do in that type of situation, but I'd like to think I'd be able to keep (relatively) calm and not lash out, but defend myself as necessary should things turn ugly.
     
  3. Poop-Loops

    Poop-Loops Banned

    Mar 3, 2006
    Auburn, Washington
    I'd have to be physically pushed. I can handle anything else. But once he pushes me, it's on.

    Legal consequences don't really matter to me, as I don't see the police stopping the fight or finding out who I am. Besides, he started it, so I'll hopefully have people to back me up on that. I just wouldn't hurt him more than I needed, because then even if he started it I could go to jail. If I even won, that is. :meh:

    I haven't been in a real fight since 5th grade, though. People have pushed me and I almost got into another one a few years after that, but nothing came of it.
     
  4. tplyons

    tplyons

    Apr 6, 2003
    Madison, NJ
    I have really good self control, which is a good thing. I can take a lot before I get annoyed, then angry. Unfortunately, I have a bad temper and snap, but it takes a LOT to get to that point.
     
  5. Skel

    Skel

    Jun 19, 2005
    Boulder, Colorado
    Not very far. That's not necessarily a good thing, but it's how I'm wired.
     
  6. Ive got alot of self control and will back out until there is no option, or if someone i know is getting beat up or something, but im a fairly big guy, and a few of my mates are right into martial arts, so we are fine, and dont usually have any trouble.
     
  7. The_D

    The_D Well, thats like your opinion. Man...

    Mar 20, 2004
    Fife, Scotland
    I have to agree with Poop-loops. Once the pushing starts its on.

    I have had a few bad ones in my time but you heal. The worrying thing around here at the moment is knifes. It definately makes me think twice these days. You just never know how it will end up. Like I have said a kick-in is a kick-in but you heal from it. No guarantee you will heal from a stab wound.

    Knife crime in Scotland is out of control at the moment. One of the guys I hung around with as a bairn was stabbed to death 2 months ago and it just brought home how dangerous it really is. How many of the fights I had when younger could have went that way if the other guy had a knife? More than I would like to dwell on I fear.

    Anyway I am now a little bit older and a little bit bigger and uglier these days. No-one has pushed me around for a while :)
     
  8. Vorago

    Vorago (((o)))

    Jul 17, 2003
    Antwerp, Belgium
    I haven't been in a fight since I was twelve I think.

    Can't really say how it would react, but I don't think I'd get physical first, can't say what happens if I'm pissed and I get pushed/hit first.
     
  9. Baryonyx

    Baryonyx Banned

    Jul 11, 2005
    Marathon Man
    If someone is just griefing me, thats fine, I can rise above that. If they threaten with physical violence I will react and I will not hesistate to hook the throat. I am would not put myself above stamping on someone's head and aiming kicks for the throat if the situation called for it.

    However, force may conquer all but it's victories are short lived. Legal consequences play a big part-I don't need a brawl spoiling my clean record. I also tend to have sympathy for the guy starting it. If I'm not completely sure of his motives, afterwards I'll feel bad about it. I've left some bruises in my time and I wonder how the guy feels about it. What was he expecting when he started the fight? Did he expect to have a black eye in the morning? If he didn't how would he feel about it?

    It's all very complex, though I consider myself lucky not to find myself in situations where physical violence is a threat. I'll even walk away from a fight if I have to. I can't deal with hurting other beings unless I feel there is a distinct need. Even then, will they learn from it?

    I guess I am pacifist who is prepared to go to extreme lengths. Violence is both the tool of oppression and liberation, good and bad. In my case, I will never instigate it.
     
  10. Tsal

    Tsal

    Jan 28, 2000
    Finland, EU
    We've had some similar happenings around here, last summer some small gang of teenagers got pissed and randomly stabbed two random people at different places - both were at places where I might be hanging out with friends or passing through. Fortunately both victims made it and the teenagers got caught quickly.

    On the original topic, I'm one of those guys who sometimes are known to open their mouth even if a fight could be avoided.
    Sometimes it makes you feel good, a honest standoff between you and some other guy, as long as it goes by the book: mouthing off at each other for a moment - often with a grin - is part of the code, after a while the first touch is made and after that it starts to get physical. Interestingly enough, something in the unwritten rules dictates that the opponent has a chance to stand off until the last moment without physical harm, it's almost gentlemanish in a funny way. Have any of you guys noticed this kind of stuff?

    Of course those fights I'm not very enthusiastic when someone just charges at you without a warning. That's when things get nasty.
     
  11. depends on the situation but usually a good racial slur or a shove will drive me over the edge. It also depends if the person annoying you has friends: that can really result in my ass being kicked.
     
  12. Same here dude, thanks to my size and uglyness i dont get in much bother, but hell, you fifers usually start it all :ninja: , but aye, seriously, knife crime is stupidly out of control around these parts.
     
  13. BillytheBassist

    BillytheBassist

    Aug 18, 2005
    Texas
    Stealing or vandalizing what is mine....disrespecting my wife or family, actually laying a hand on me in a violent manner....spitting on me really does the trick.
     
  14. I'm trained in a few fighting systems and feel I have more responsibility to be better at negotiation and choosing non-violent approaches to conflict resolution.

    I tend to go out of my way to avoid situations that may lead to violence and very much advocate the "be the better person" mentality, so if we're at a point that someone is arguing with me to the point someone might end up getting physical, it's a fair bet they're already pretty much in the wrong.

    The moment I feel a loved one or myself is in personal danger, I'll strike. I have stepped into and broken up fights between strangers in the past too, usually all it takes is one or two people to intervene to garnish enough interest for those in the wrong to move on...

    Yes!! Witnesses usually don't know the first thing about fighting and you are judged by peers who do not understand the ins and outs of self defense. If you apply the rule of hit first and hit hard, you look like the one who "started it" and coupled with training to do harm it doesn't look good to a judge to be in that position at all.

    That said, I would still prefer being tried by 12 than carried by 6.

    Of course I would do everything I could, violence doesn't solve anything in the long run if it did noone would be fighting wars or stabbing each other today ;)

    The old adage "eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind" rings a little true for me on that one.

    Even without legal consequences, the chances of doing yourself an injury injuring someone else is surprisingly high.

    I have kids too, so they need to learn violence is never an answer unless you're forced to answer to it.

    I prefer calling it conditioned to believe it's OK, since violence is all around us, often glorified through movies and music etc.

    Just think about how much of it goes on now and it's illegal!!! I imagine it would only get worse if it was OK to do so.

    Bad example for this discussion isnt it? The guy is already walking in armed and with an intention to harm so obviously in such an emergency situation violence would be an acceptable means of answering such violence and quite justified to.

    I thought we were discussing disagreements that started verbal, went to a little push and shove and turned physical from that point.

    Guys are not "hardwired" for violence they often feel powerless to deal with someone elses retorts so resort to violence as a means of proving strength.

    Post answered, no critique from me there aren't really right or wrong questions answers here just different choices on how to deal with such situations. Criminal psychiology and violence as a whole is an intriguing subject to read about
     
  15. The_D

    The_D Well, thats like your opinion. Man...

    Mar 20, 2004
    Fife, Scotland


    I may be a Fifer but I have supported the Super J's since i was a wee boy. So trust me bud I know who starts it ;)
     
  16. Indiana Mike

    Indiana Mike

    Nov 18, 2005
    Evansville
    He who lives by the sword dies by the sword.


    A couple of ricky badasses just proved this friday night here, fighting over a old girlfreind. One had a bat and the other one with the knife managed to shove it in the others heart.

    Mean people suck.

    Am I saying to take a beating , NO, just make sure no one sees you when you go back to burn his house down.
     
  17. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    Nothing would really provoke me to physical action unless I felt my life was threatened, or someone from my family.

    I'm usually the biggest guy in the room wherever I go, so I get tempted plenty by guys who want to prove they aren't afraid of me. So, I'm used to it. I generally feel sorry for men who feel they need to prove they aren't afraid of me to validate their own self worth.

    I've been pushed and called names in the past because I won't engage in a physical altercation with someone. Again, it just does not bother me. Now if you hit my wife, my parents, my son, or my sister, then I'm all about making sure they are safe. :D

    Why am I that way? Am I afraid of the legal consequences? No. I thank my parents for showing me how to act like an adult, how to deal with bullies, and that who I am is not directly related to the size of my biceps.

    -Mike
     
  18. Neb Maro

    Neb Maro I don't think, but I still am.

    Oct 20, 2006
    So. Cali
    How far would you have to be pushed before you actually physically lash out at another guy and thus get embroiled in a brawl or a fight?"

    Answering my own questions. I have never been in a fight. I was pushed down once, but nothing came of it. After being pushed, I was mocked some, but I think I wanted the guy who pushed me to try something else before we got into it. He was my friend, so there was that reluctance. Also, my blood wasn't as hot back then.
    Now, I think slander, threats to me or mine, and aggressive physical contact might be enough to make me go at it. I depends on the severity of the situation.

    "Does thought of legal consenquences prompt you to hold out for much longer than you originally would?"

    Apart from knowing that I should take the peaceful way out anyway, the thought of being arrested for assault is big on my mind.

    "If the only consenquences for fighting were that you got your butt kicked if you lost, would you still do everything you could to avoid it?"

    I would not seek it out, but I may not be as slow to get into it.

    "If there were no consenquences for fighting, how quick would you lash out in hopes of landing the first punch?"

    It would always be my goal to land the first punch. I don't think I have any qualms about trying to make it so my opponent doesn't get a chance to land a solid hit of his own. So if I were to start, I'd keep going until it's done.

    "I've been thinking about this, because I think guys are hardwired, to some degree, to fight."

    If men weren't hardwired in some way to fight, I doubt there would be as much violence as there is today. Maybe not all men are, I grant that, but enough are that I think the issue needs attention. Men are more aggresive than women and more physical, so I think they need construcive ways to express that. They also shouldn't have to be afraid of their anger.

    "Because of this, I wonder how much actually deadly violence would occur if guys were just allowed to fight it out instead of always trying to find a reasonable and peaceful means to end conflict."

    I'm actually envisioning boxing rings, wrestling mats, martial arts. Not bloody, uncontrolled brawls.

    "Being reasonable and peaceful are the best ways to end conflicts, but sometimes the bad feelings don't go away. They end up building upon eachother until they explode outward.
    Examples would be kids walking into schools and opening fire, disgruntled employees doing the same at work."

    Another concession concerning the examples. They probably weren't the best for the context. Still; there needs to be ways to express violent feelings. To hold them in is really trying to hold back a dam with a finger plugged into the hole.

    "Fighting isn't the best answer, but if guys are hardwired for it, causing them to have to try to ignore it can't be a good thing."

    Again I'm thinking about controlled aggression.

    Please answer questions first before you critique the rest of my post. Thanks.
     
  19. Neb Maro

    Neb Maro I don't think, but I still am.

    Oct 20, 2006
    So. Cali
    Thanks for that response Depth Charge. :D

    And for all the others guys.
     
  20. No worries mate it's a bit of an interest area for me...

    "Controlled aggression", IMO, is an oxy-moron. Once you cross that line, the thinking brain makes way for the scared, instinctive fight/flight/freeze brain and you might feel in control of yourself, but you've lost control of the situation and are too charged with adrenalin to clearly think things through at that point in my experience.

    I've been there a few times to know both in the proper context of fighting for defense and, as shameful and risky as it is to admit, in the improper context of controlling others through my tendency to choose violence to control others pre-counselling.

    Watch any UFC or fighting event and the guy charged with adrenalin and fire in his eyes often gets wiped by the calmer, clearer thinking types...not always ... but in many cases that rings true. Also watch for the level of blood and brawling over the clean techniques chosen as well ;)

    And after spending 10+ years in martial and fighting art clubs around Perth, my experience shows the "men" who try settling their differences inside such environemnts often find it an unfulfilling method of deciding who is best anyway, and often end up back on the "street" sorting it out again.

    Stay well mate
     

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