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put it on the floor?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by johans, Oct 11, 2005.


  1. johans

    johans G.U.I - Groovin' under influence

    Oct 28, 2004
    the Bay Area, CA
    hi guys, im just wondering about this issue

    i've seen in many gigs, and venues where the guitarist or bassist has their 2x12 cab or a single 4x10 just on the floor while they stand and play .. i don't know how but from angle point of view, you really can't hear fully from your cab unless its raised, or tilted .. or do you?

    any thought why its better than raised?

    thanks,
     
  2. Frugle

    Frugle

    Sep 4, 2005
    Atlanta GA
    which is why soundmen hate musicians and musicians hate soundmen.

    no you can't hear your amp if its on your ankles which is why musicians generally crank their amps... which blows away the people who are more level with the speaker.

    plus, the musician EQ it to sound good at that angle, not what the audience, is hearing.. so it makes the audiences mix muddy..

    so yes, it is better to have it slanted twards your ears.. makes everyone happy..

    heck if you can, put it in front of you and tilt it up, so that you can ehre it... and then let the sound guy take care of your bass through the PA.
     
  3. FunkSlap89

    FunkSlap89

    Apr 26, 2005
    Albany, NY
    Plus, with bass, i've noticed that you cut through the mix much better if the amp isn't tilted. Unless you have a tilt back amp, the FEELING of the bass is lost when its propped back against something. You can FEEL the bass a lot more when its flat on ground level.
     
  4. johans

    johans G.U.I - Groovin' under influence

    Oct 28, 2004
    the Bay Area, CA
    yes, i am raising my 410 with a sturdy stands probably about 2 feet tall, thus my 410 will be as tall as my (about 5'6") i am hearing ok but our soundmen always complaint about my loudness and he has to cut my line from main speakers because i am way to loud from my 410 to cover the whole hall :(

    i have no idea what to as well .. any of you has this experience? when you think it just barely your ear satisfaction, yet its way too loud in the house?

    i was thinking if lowering it to flow might be better in the hall..
     
  5. bobyoung53

    bobyoung53 Supporting Member

    Aug 29, 2004
    Millbury Ma.
    You get more bottom on the floor, acoustics, also more in a corner. If you want maximum bottom put your cab on the floor in a corner, minimum is in the middle of a room, off the floor, away from the wall. The bottom from a bass moves in all directions equally, only the top end is directional, this is why off to the side of a bass amp they sound muffled and in front they sound clear. Good soundman (is there such a thing?) know this and spread the mid and top around the room more than the bottom especially if you use a big amp.
    Anytime you have problems with a soundman, remind him of who's working for whom, also remind him that if it wasn't for musicians he wouldn't have a job, he'd be home bitching at his stereo. :D
     
  6. BurningSkies

    BurningSkies CRAZY BALDHEAD

    Feb 20, 2005
    Seweracuse, NY
    I used to put my 4x10 up on a chair or milkcrate when on stage...it worked pretty good. These days I'm using a uniquely voiced 2x12, and it seems to like it much better right on the floor. I get better bass and the cab doesn't lack dispersion, so I can still hear it great.
     
  7. Eric Moesle

    Eric Moesle Supporting Member

    Sep 21, 2001
    Columbus OH
    Not me. I found a good one, and treat him like gold. Pay him too much in the process, but its worth it.

    Hire a competent one, treat him with respect and dignity, and he'll do the same. Take care of him, he'll take care of you.
     
  8. Plain Old Me

    Plain Old Me

    Dec 14, 2004
    There is a very simple solution to this. Get a cab taller than you are. :p
     
  9. arock

    arock

    Sep 16, 2005
    Verona, WI
    I just picked up a Fender Bassman Pro 4x10 SL. This cab has the top two 10" speakers slanted to angle up. When the cab is on the floor, you still have drivers pointed up at you.
     
  10. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    I apoligize in advance for digressing in this post, but your question is a loaded one which bears some examination.

    The problem here is stage sound/being able to hear yourself vs the sound you're putting out the the audience (the final and most important product).

    All rooms are different and cabinet placement should depend upon this. Placing a cabinet on the floor can increase bass response due to coupling with the floor/stage. So can placement in relation to walls, corners, etc. (placement with relation to walls can also affect phase cancellation of certain wavelengths depending upon the distance from the wall). Some rooms are "boomy" and you want to place your cab to minimize this effect. Other rooms are "aneimic" sounding and your rig needs all the help it can get. You also want to be able to hear yourself at a reasonable volume so you don't inadvertantly drive your audience away by turning up your rig too loud just to be able to hear yourself. Having your cabinet closer to ear level can help with this, as can having a second cabinet stacked on to of the first one (i prefer the latter). Tilting your cab isnt my favorite option as it puts it off axis with relation to the audience, and you always have reflections from the ceiling screwing with the sound as well. Optimally, you'd have a PA with monitors that would allow you to hear the bass thru that.

    In terms of the final product (the sound the audience hears) I have mixed feelings about how to get that. In many cases it's preferable to have a good PA and a good soundman and run as much of everything thru the PA in order to let the soundman (who hears what the audience does) have control of the relative volume of all the instruments. However, most PA systems can't handle bass guitar reinforcement on their own, so your rig ends up providing most of it. I've also found that the sound can be more coherent if the instrumants all go thru their own amplifiers rather than thru the PA. However, this requires using long instrument cords for soundcheck so you can stand close to where the audience will be. It also requires maturity on the part iof the musicians to refrain from turning up and engaging in "volume wars" after the sound check, and a willingness to listen to the soundman or other designated persons during the performance when they tell you to adjust your voume or tone.

    Back to the original question. :p IMO, I wouldn't "tilt" your cabinet. If possible I'd use a stack (i use a 15" and a 12") to allow you one speaker on the floor for bass response and a second one closer to ear level to be able to hear yourself better. If you're limited to one speaker I'd keep it on the floor unless you're in a room that is soo "boomy" that the sound for the audience would be better if you got the cab up off the floor to reduce the coupling effect and tame the lows. If possible I'd use a monitor from the Pa with your bass thru it if you have trouble hearing yourself, (and a little kick and snare in it to help you lock with the drummer wouldn't hurt either).

    In a case where you have no PA monitor for the bass and you need to keep your single cab on the floor to help with bass response (meaning the sound for the audience lacks bass response otherwise) just remember to avoid turning up too loud (for the audience) just to be able to hear yourself better. I can't count the times I've had to suck it up and deal with a crappy stage mix while concentrating to hear myself (or the other players). However, learning to do that is worth it if it souonds great out front. ;)
     
  11. Platypibri

    Platypibri Technician, Kaman Music

    Jun 28, 2005
    Riverside, CA
    I have the perfect solution. I have a great D.I. and In Ear monitors. I also have a platform with a rump shaker attached that supplements the feel of the bass and the kick. It's great.
     
  12. johans

    johans G.U.I - Groovin' under influence

    Oct 28, 2004
    the Bay Area, CA
    hmm..

    okay..
    :)

    here's my church setup

    ----------------------------------
    bass drummer
    [] me


    stage
    ----------------------------------






    congregation
    ----------------------------------
    soundboard
     
  13. johans

    johans G.U.I - Groovin' under influence

    Oct 28, 2004
    the Bay Area, CA
    so.. there i am standing..

    my 410 faced the drummer .. not the congregation :) and its really suprised me that i was told that I am still way too loud and all my notes are very clear in the audience, but my bass rolls up drummers and other instruments by far ... so any fixs to this?
     
  14. johans

    johans G.U.I - Groovin' under influence

    Oct 28, 2004
    the Bay Area, CA
    perhaps its our room acoustic that is pretty bad .. i used to have a 115 410 setup, to me it was heaven, but my 115 was told 'too boomy' and basically fill the whole auditorium and overridden all other instrumetns or vocals .. thus i have to sell it off because none of the soundmen think it sound good in the FOH ... thus im left with the 410 ..

    sitting with the 410 would be perfect, but i rather stand, and i have no idea how to fix this yet..
     
  15. ras1983

    ras1983

    Dec 28, 2004
    Sydney, Australia
    A wise man once said:

    To hear one's self on stage,
    And not get lost in the mix,
    One needs a PV Black Widow,
    Much heavier than bricks,
    Clarity and crispness it has not,
    But volume and intensity it has got.

    :p :bag:

    Just joking, stand further away from your cab, the first node is several feet away. This should help somewhat.
     
  16. johans

    johans G.U.I - Groovin' under influence

    Oct 28, 2004
    the Bay Area, CA
    hey! :)
    do you place your cab down?

    here brings down another issue .. i dont mind standing a little further from my cab however, im someone who rather feel the punch than volume.. its good to have both..

    however, i rather hear less volume and feel the punch, rather than loud without any punch..
     
  17. ras1983

    ras1983

    Dec 28, 2004
    Sydney, Australia
    You can feel the punch when you step away from the cab. If you stand in a node, you feel a LOT of punch.

    I place mine on the floor because my PV 115 BW combo weighs a tonne. I'm afraid it will break the chair or lose balance and cause the church to collapse.

    Seriously though, i place it on the floor because its just easier for me to do so. I always thought that the majority of bass players place their cabs/combos on the floor??

    At the end of the day, if we as bassplayers cater to our needs more than the audience's, then i think we are missing the point. I try to set up the best sound for the audience because i don't have PA support, then i work my way around that to find a spot that is good for me.

    Ultimately you will need to decide on where to position your cab (on the floor or otherwise) depending on the accoustics of the venue you play in.
     
  18. johans

    johans G.U.I - Groovin' under influence

    Oct 28, 2004
    the Bay Area, CA
    thanks bro,
    what's standing in a node?

    how far do you get?
    do you place your combo towards the congregation? if i do it, i was told to be WAY TOO loud.. :bawl:
     
  19. When you guys say "congregation", I think church, which usually has the acoustics of a gym regarding hard floors/walls, tends to really accentuate the bass, making it boomy. Situations like that I'll either raise the cab up, or sometimes just isolate from the floor, something like the gramma foam thing.

    So in churches, up in the air could be a good thing. For bars, carpeted rooms, or outdoors, where bass response is hard to come by, the additional bass boost from being in the floor/corner is crucial.

    Randy
     
  20. +1 In most situations, coupling a cab to the floor results in more punch and definition out in the room, and results in the amp/cab not having to work as hard. Per above, in really boomy rooms, etc., I just leave my cab on its removable castors to reduce the low end boominess.