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Quantum mechanics and SS amps

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by St Drogo, Apr 20, 2010.


  1. Indeed. When I can crank a solid-state amp all the way up way past clipping and have it sound and feel just as awesome, only then will I consider tubes obsolete.
     
  2. Old technology, but hey, it works. That's an awesome comparison.

    Both are really old designs, yet both work well and are quite easy to service for someone who knows how.
     
  3. ehque

    ehque

    Jan 8, 2006
    Singapore
    Again, fixed it for you. The article only states that the transmitter being replaced is the most powerful LORAN transmitter, it says nothing about LORAN transmitters being the most powerful transmitters of all, at all. 2.5 MW transmitters do exist, and it appears they are all tube.

    Are you speculating, or do you know this for a fact?

    Are you assuming the only way to take down the GPS network is with an EMP, and hence this array will obviously be designed to that effect? Because i can think of at least 2 other ways to disable GPS-based navigation either permanently or temporarily, and neither of them involve EMPs.
     
  4. seamonkey

    seamonkey

    Aug 6, 2004
    Give some references to where a 2.5MW transmitter exists - what I found was shutdown in the 70's. Transmitter tubes are nothing like tubes use in common amplifiers. Giant transmitter tubes if still around are designed to be rebuilt and often were. They were put in temperature controlled environments, and so on.

    LORAN is not GPS - GPS is satellites. LORAN is a backup should GBS go down.
    No speculating that top RF designers were involved in the design of LORAN.
    And the new SS transmitter are much more reliable and efficient.
     
  5. ehque

    ehque

    Jan 8, 2006
    Singapore
    Russian Bolshakovo transmitter started transmitting at 2.5MW in 1991. To the best of my knowledge, it is a tube transmitter.

    You state this like megawatt level transistors do not require the same kind of environment stability.

    I am simply addressing your argument that "LORAN is the backup to GPS, hence it must be EMP resistant" which is a non sequitur.
     
  6. okcrum

    okcrum in your chest

    Oct 5, 2009
    Verde Valley, AZ
    RIP Dark Horse strings
    Like I said earlier, a pair of 8974s will produce about 2 MW of *audio* in class AB1. The four 2.5 MW class C RF amps using them that we built at Princeton in the 1980s are still in use today. At that time, the tubes were called X2159 since they were still Eimac experimental.

    These particular 4 amps were coupled to antennas inside fusion test reactors to provide 10 MW of plasma heating. There are still a lot of applications for large tubes besides over-the-air transmission.

    The tube crates came labeled in 4 languages: English, Spanish, German, and Persian. I'd wager there are still a number of these in use in the Middle East and elsewhere in shortwave service. You *can* still buy the tube, after all. ;)
     
  7. Blueszilla

    Blueszilla Bassist ordinaire

    Apr 2, 2003
    The Duke City
    Anybody worked on LORAN xmtrs? I did in the '70's in Alaska and Nevada. Output PA had four water cooled tubes, push-pull design, tubes were made by ITT. Impressive pieces of 'vintage' equipment those transmitters. Output power ratings for RF LORAN transmitters depend a lot on the type and size of the antenna.

    Are the LORAN stations still in service? How about that...
     
  8. nostatic

    nostatic Supporting Member

    Jun 18, 2004
    lost angeles, CA
    Endorsing Artist: FEA Labs
    I read "The Lorax" awhile back. Is that close enough?
     
  9. seamonkey

    seamonkey

    Aug 6, 2004
    From wikipedia:
    "Bolshakovo transmitter was the most powerful ..."
    It's been shutdown.

    So I'll have to stand by my assertion that the most powerful transmitters in operation in the world are SS. Loran/eLoran - is still in active use today, With plans to keep it going. That's why they've gone SS.

    The cost of power, cooling, and maintenance I don't think you'll see a revival of big powerful valve based transmitters. Any that do exist, as soon as they can move to SS - they do it. It's too wasteful and unreliable to do otherwise. Proved by Quantum Physics.


    And you just don't read the "The Lorax" once - you read it over and over and over again. Then one more time. :)
     
  10. okcrum

    okcrum in your chest

    Oct 5, 2009
    Verde Valley, AZ
    RIP Dark Horse strings
    :rollno:
     
  11. JimmyM

    JimmyM Supporting Member

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    hey man, if it's on wikipedia it has to be true.

    :D

    what did i say? book knowledge, not practical knowledge.
     
  12. okcrum

    okcrum in your chest

    Oct 5, 2009
    Verde Valley, AZ
    RIP Dark Horse strings
    :rollno: HAARP. 3.6 MW. Tubes.
     
  13. seamonkey

    seamonkey

    Aug 6, 2004
    Hey - you found "1"!

    but

    "... The design employs a 1 kW solid state low power amplifier driving a conventional pushpull, vacuum tube final stage ..."

    It's mostly SS.

    There are mulitiple transmitters, 180 not a "single" transmitter.

    And these tubes are nothing like that used by musical instrument amps. And at 45% efficiency, you bet they'd change that out as soon as they could afford to.

    "... For low power operation, the tubes are bypassed and the antenna fed directly from the driver stage ..."

    Which appears to be most of the time.
    And the thing is all digital controlled.
     
  14. johnk_10

    johnk_10 vintage bass nut Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 16, 2008
    Thousand Oaks, CA
    John K Custom Basses
    :D:D:D:D
     
  15. okcrum

    okcrum in your chest

    Oct 5, 2009
    Verde Valley, AZ
    RIP Dark Horse strings
    And your point is...?

    Your example 1.3 MW LORAN transmitter has 1300 1 kw solid state amps in it. That means something like 2600 power transistors. You're always fixing something with that many components.

    So what if HAARP uses 180 amps? They've got 360 antennas to drive, doh. Would you have designed a 360 way power divider? :eek: HAARP's power amps are tubes, not SS. The *drivers* are SS. It'll do 10% power using those. Every major country in the world has at least one installation like HAARP.

    The amps I worked on have 2 tubes each, a 100kw driver and a 2.5 MW power amp. About 1% of the parts compared to the LORAN install for twice the output. Can you say reliable?

    Have you checked how many solid state high power DTV transmitters there are? Um, none. Can't do that with SS. High power satellite transponders in orbit? Nope, same thing.

    Seriously...there's a tube in every microwave oven too. I know that's hard to believe, but...they're all transmitters! ;)

    Sorry to confuse you with the facts.
     
  16. seamonkey

    seamonkey

    Aug 6, 2004
    The worlds moving on.
    Vacuums tubes are being replaced everywhere they can.
    LORAN as the article points out is much more reliable now.
    New technology displaces old.
    Players looking for a new amp need to look past the typical hype and really give a listen to the new technology. There's no sacrifice in tone and hasn't been in years.
     
  17. FunkMetalBass

    FunkMetalBass

    Aug 5, 2005
    Phoenix, Arizona 85029
    Endorsing Artist: J.C. Basses
    I thought Einstein believed in the SS universe....?

    :p
     
  18. FunkMetalBass

    FunkMetalBass

    Aug 5, 2005
    Phoenix, Arizona 85029
    Endorsing Artist: J.C. Basses
    I was both laughing at the Schroedinger reference in this post while I was in the other room making a sandwich and dancing.

    Now I'm just typing my response.
     
  19. JimmyM

    JimmyM Supporting Member

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    right. that's why tube amps are more popular for bass now than ever, and that's why legions of guitarists refuse to play anything but tube amps. because new technology displaces old.

    now go find another wikipedia article to back up your unfounded claims.
     
  20. johnk_10

    johnk_10 vintage bass nut Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 16, 2008
    Thousand Oaks, CA
    John K Custom Basses
    seamonkey,
    i just don't understand why you are on this anti-tube crusade? i mean, its one thing to say that you prefer solid state, but IMO, to say that tubes are 'hype' and that there is no sacrifice in tone is absolute nonsense to me. i have both types of amplifiers, and ALOT of high end SS and tube recording equipment, and i firmly do not believe that solid state has duplicated the sound of electrons bouncing around in a vacuum. i really wish that they could, but they just can't. if you can't tell the difference, that's great for you, but its the reason that i do not own a single SS guitar amp, and i don't know of a single great (or even good) guitarist that do either.

    as far as bass rigs go, i think that you can get a great sound out of a 100% SS bass rig, but to come close to duplicating it can cost as much or more than its tube counterpart. my Focusrite ISA 430 MK II thru a Crown xti2000 comes pretty close, but that's a $3500 (retail) preamp thru a $1151.00 (also retail) power amp, and my tube UA 6176 still kills it, as far as depth, tone-wise. IMO, it would take a Neve 8801 or an API 7600 to be as good (or even possibly not), and they cost an additional grand above the Focusrite. and no amount of modeling has come close as of yet.

    i sincerely don't want to offend you, but i can only assume that you haven't spent any real time in a real professional recording studio, using a Neumann U47 thru a pro console, in a tuned room with some high end monitors. otherwise, i think that even you might change your 'tune'.

    then again, if you can't tell the difference, it doesn't matter anyway, but please don't try to convince others that tubes are a thing of the past, when tube devices are probably more popular in pro studios and pro rigs than they ever have been and if it was just a 'fad' or 'hype' they would have been long gone by now.
     

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