1. Please take 30 seconds to register your free account to remove most ads, post topics, make friends, earn reward points at our store, and more!  
     
    TalkBass.com has been uniting the low end since 1998.  Join us! :)

Question - Is this a bad idea?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Alex, May 9, 2006.


  1. Is it OK to stack two cabs (both 8 ohm) even if they have very different power handlings? I was thinking of getting an 800w 1x18, and putting a 1x8 or 1x10 on top of it just to handle the highs. However, most 1x10's and such usually handle only about 150-250 watts. Will I not be able to push more than 150-250 watts into my stack without the 1x10 farting out, making the rest of the 1x18's wattage useless?
     
  2. Tony G

    Tony G

    Jan 20, 2006
    NY
    Hmmm.... A 1x10, and a 1x18??? Not exactly a conventional rig... But I don't think you should have too much of a problem running it, but as you said, the single 10 can only handle so much power.
     
  3. Is there any way to remedy this with biamping or what not? I'm not really familiar with any of those techniques.
     
  4. Sutton

    Sutton

    Mar 3, 2005
    Plainwell, MI
    How about an 18 and a 210.....

    I'd actually recomment a 115 410 setup, but thats just me
     
  5. Power handling is not the concern. Suckout is the problem.

    If you have two different cab types, and both overlap in the bass range, you almost certainly will have suckouts. This is phase cancellation, and results in almost a complete hole at a certain frequency.

    This is even worse when using a bass horn and reflex box side by side. The difference in path length results in a complete cancellation at frequencies where the horn is 180-degrees late from the direct radiator.

    If you put a bass driver on the bottom, use a high pass filter for the top cab. You do not want the two working in the same frequencies. The pro sound guys figured this one out a long time ago, and do not mix their subs.
     
  6. Alex,

    I posed essentially the same question to Andy Lewis of Acme Bass, whom I consider to be one of the most knowledgeable designers in the business. He said it's usually not a good idea because the amplifier essentially delivers power equally to the two cabinets and explained the physics involved. You would probably need to bi-amp or use some other setup that enables you to differentiate the power output to the two cabinets.

    If you're interested in a more technical explanation, I would encourage you to call or e-maill Andy (acmebass@aol.com) or Jim Bergantino (jimbergantino@bergantino.com). They're both great guys who are extremely knowledgeable and gracious in responding to questions.

    Good luck!

    Bluesy Soul :cool:
     
  7. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001

    Jun 17, 2004
    Ireland
    Would this hold true for a more usual cabinet combination like a 4x10 and 1x15 arrangement? Both cabinets are generally full range thus they are both working within the same frequency range.
    Another question would be why would both working in the same frequncy range be a problem? Would the speakers not have to be moving in opposite directions to cause a phase cancelation i.e. as one is moving forward the other is moving backward. If they both move forward and backward at the same time will this not lead to a peak in the frequency range.

    Oh and I also think that bi amping is the way to. The 1x10 will require less power than the 1x18 if biamped since it will be handeling higher range frequencies. Same idea why a guitarist with 100 watt amp will kick the ass of a bass player with a 100 watt amp (on volume)
     
  8. lug

    lug

    Feb 11, 2005
    League City, Tx

    You get this effect.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. McHack

    McHack

    Jul 29, 2003
    Central Ohio!
    I'm curious...

    WHY do you want to do this, Alex? Do you already have a 10 & just looking for a match for it?
     
  10. Eric Cioe

    Eric Cioe

    Jun 4, 2001
    Missoula, MT
    I'll advocate it! I ran my GK200MB atop of a 1x18 PA sub with a 700 watt amp bridged into the sub, and 100 watts into the 1x12 internal of the combo. I actually liked this setup better than my biamped 850 watt 2x10 / 1x18 before.

    I think that running that particular sub full range (for bass, that is) sounds better than biamping, so long as you have something to pick up the slack higher up.
     
  11. cheezewiz

    cheezewiz Supporting Member

    Mar 27, 2002
    Ohio
    Alex..make sure you actually try an 18 before plunging. Your buddies cab sounded a bunch different due to the size I'd guess.
    To my ears, 18's are floppy sounding muddy slow speakers that really sound like a$$ in a live mix.
     
  12. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001

    Jun 17, 2004
    Ireland
    When people say slow. I assume that they mean that it can't replicate higher frequencies as well as other smaller speakers. Since if it was literally slow it would just produce a lower frequency note than what was given into it.

    Although I would agree running an 18 full range would probably not sound great. Giving it sub frequencies and letting something else handle the rest might sound good ie bi-amping. It could give you a nice solid bottom end whilst letting other speakers give you something to cut through with

    A guy that played drums with me who's also a sound engineer (a very good one) said that when things sound muddy in a mix it's usually due to low mids more than sub frequencies. I don't know how true that is but its something to conisder.
     
  13. Eric Cioe

    Eric Cioe

    Jun 4, 2001
    Missoula, MT
    The thing is, these speakers naturally roll off before this point. Assuming you have something to pick up the slack on top and brighten up your tone (if that's what you want), I still think fullrange is the way to go.
     
  14. Plain Old Me

    Plain Old Me

    Dec 14, 2004
    I use a 610 and 210 live and it works great! I don't get any of that phase cancellation (at least I can't hear any...) but it may be different with a 10 and 18.
     
  15. I'm definitely going to go try one out first, guaranteed. Just speculating at the moment.

    To everyone who wonders why I want this setup - I was going to run the 118 as a standalone, but the cab has a 6+ dB rolloff after 1.1k, so I figured I would get a little 1x10 cab to handle the highs. Sounds sensible, eh?

    If I am going to biamp it, do I need to find a head that has a biamping feature, and how do I send certain frequencies to certain cabs? Do amps that biamp always have two channels to EQ each separate cab?

    bgavin - I don't understand what you are saying about "suckout". Well, I understand what you're saying, I just don't understand why it is true.
     
  16. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001

    Jun 17, 2004
    Ireland
    you don't necessarily need a head that can bi-amp.You could get a crossover and put it in your fx loop returning one frequency range and sending the other set of frequencies to another power amp.
    Or you could just get a power amp and send each frequency range into each channel and not use the power section in your head.
    I would imagine that those who bi-amp mostly use a pre-amp power amp setup if they don't have a head that can bi amp.
     
  17. some 18" are really good. like Mesa and SWRs. You could try and high pass the 10" with a capacitor. search the web for high pass filter or crossover designs. Heck you could just get an old Voice of the theater speaker corssover and be good to go. Or order one of the premade ones Carvin sells. That way you can run both cabs from one amp, no bi-amping needed, but still be running highs to the small spkr and lows to the big one. capiche? you do lose about 3-5% of your power to the crossover, maybe more but it is nothing to worry about.
     
  18. With one of these, can I send some overlapping frequencies to some of the cabs? I would like the ten to also handle some mids to add punch.
     
  19. wolfs

    wolfs

    Jan 18, 2006
    nyc
    There's those Peavey 1810 (or 1820) cabs with 2-10" and an 18"... pretty heavy though. They go used for pretty cheap.

    Also, I don't know where you could try one out, but Bag End makes a compact 18" that might do well all by itself (I'm only going by the praise people dish out for BE's compact 15" cab for being "punchy" and "fast"). I think I might have brought the BE up in your other thread about 18" speakers.

    Also, freq responce specs don't always give an accurate description of how a cab will sound in reality, though they are good guidelines... I'm just saying you may find that an SWR Big Ben, Hartke 1800, or BE S18 might give up enough upper responce for your liking. You won't know until you hear it.

    (How's that for not answering your question :D I basically agree with what everyone else said: that a 1x10 would work in conjunction with a 1x18 but you couldn't put a whole lot of stress on it, so a crossover of some sort would be best.)
     

Share This Page