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Real life GK CX410 power handling

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by lethal dose, Nov 25, 2017.


  1. lethal dose

    lethal dose

    Apr 10, 2016
    Hey, fellow low downers. I find myself in a predicament. Currently, I run a Mesa Mpulse 600 and powerhouse 2x15 cab loaded with Kappalite 3015 drivers and retuned for optimum performance. We just added a second guitar player and now have a PAIR of 100 Marshall half stacks. The Mesa just doesn’t have the steam needed to keep up and the 2x15 starts barking quite a bit, even with the Kappalite drivers. Our regular playing gig doesn’t permit bass to be run FOH and having everyone turn down at rehearsal isn’t an option (I know, I know...). With that said, I’ve owned two GK 1001rb-ii heads in the past and know that they’re good for the clean headroom he Mesa isn’t. My concern is: he CX410 cabs are rated for 800 watts RMS. This figure is almost certainly the thermal rating and it would be hard to imagine the mechanical rating is even close- we’d be getting into Kappalite 3010ho territory which are nearly $200/driver. With the exception of the Mesa Subway series, I don’t know of any commercial cab manufacturers that list mechanical power handling. My question: will a PAIR of cx410 cabs put out more volume CLEANLY than my current 2x15 Kappalite rig or are they going to fart out at volume before getting to where I need?
     
  2. I think your best bet is to add more speakers. Maybe an 810 or 2 410s
     
  3. Stumbo

    Stumbo Wherever you go, there you are. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 11, 2008
    Song Surgeon slow downer. https://tinyurl.com/y5dcuqjg
    At rehearsal, turn the guit players cabs towards the wall. They can even try it at the gig.

    Also, turn the bass down on the Marshal heads. They don't need "bedroom tone" now that they have a bass player. Same thing when a keyboard player is still playing 10 finger chords.

    How's your stage setup? one guitar player on each side?
     
    packhowitzer and StayLow like this.
  4. lethal dose

    lethal dose

    Apr 10, 2016
    This is what I’m getting at, but there are some pretty valid arguments that a single Kappalite 3015 can produce more volume than most commercially available 410 cabs.
     
  5. What is the impedance of your 2x15? I would assume 4Ω. Possibly your amp is running out of headroom. Another possibility is that your 3015s aren’t really happy in your modified cabinet.

    Edit: Do the battery test on your cabinet just to make sure that you have both woofers wired with the same polarity.

    See if you can beg, borrow or rent a more powerful amp to try your system out.
     
    Old Garage-Bander likes this.
  6. lethal dose

    lethal dose

    Apr 10, 2016
    They won’t get it or go for it. I’ll suggest it, and do appreciate the input, but I can nearly guarantee they’ll tell me to buzz off (nicely, of course :p). One on each side as far as stage set up.
     
  7. lethal dose

    lethal dose

    Apr 10, 2016
    4 ohm, Yes. I’d think they’d be happy, as it’s a 6.5cf box tuned to 54hz. Maybe not?
     
  8. I’m not a speaker guru so I cannot comment. Perhaps the fine members who know a lot about cabinet design could comment. @DukeLeJeune
     
  9. lethal dose

    lethal dose

    Apr 10, 2016
    Duke would be a great person to consult, here! Thanks for the suggestion!
     
  10. Stumbo

    Stumbo Wherever you go, there you are. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 11, 2008
    Song Surgeon slow downer. https://tinyurl.com/y5dcuqjg
    What's your max budget?

    A couple of fEarfull 151566's and a two channel, 2k power amp running from the out of your head.

    Point it right at their heads at rehearsal. Make them cry.
     
    mikewalker and eriky4003 like this.
  11. lethal dose

    lethal dose

    Apr 10, 2016
    LOL! I had a fEARful. Never warmed up to it. It didbhandle a frightening amount of power, though.
     
  12. StayLow

    StayLow

    Mar 14, 2008
    With two half-stacks playing legitimately LOUD you can maybe be heard with a sealed 2x15 if you're using a pick with force and not desiring much low end in your sound.

    Likely you need at least a 6x10.

    Part of the problem may be the amp. M-Pulse sound awesome but get fuzzy early and totally wooly anywhere near max output. That wil not help you sit in a LOUD and probably sonically dense (heavy music) mix.

    Cones, cones, cones.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  13. lethal dose

    lethal dose

    Apr 10, 2016
    Kinda what I’m thinking. Gonna run a preamp into the fx return and bypass the gain stage and tubes on the mpulse. Will go from there. I know the 1001 will fix that problem if it remains. My biggest concern is a pair of cx410 cabs vs my current one. Ugh.
     
  14. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    A tuning frequency in the upper 40's might buy you a little bit more excursion-limited power handling before "barking" (which I presume is due to over-excursion), but not much. Imo a highpass filter would probably make a bigger and more useful difference.

    Without knowing some specifics about the woofers in the CX410 (which probably aren't easily know-able), I couldn't really say. If I had to guess, I'd say chances are the pair of 410s will have higher thermally-limited max SPL, so if you can protect them against over-excursion with a highpass filter, that might work.

    That being said, it sounds to me like the job of "keeping up with" now that a second guitarist has been added calls for a either significant jump in your SPL capability, or significant restraint on their part. If the latter is unrealistic, then how realistic would it be to consider adding a second 215?
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
    wave rider likes this.
  15. StayLow

    StayLow

    Mar 14, 2008
    You have my empathy, having been in several bands with half and full stacks and having wasted a lot of time, money and goodwill chasing small/light/costly solutions based on anecdotes by anonymous online posters essentially claiming that the laws of physics have been repealed.

    It's a costly pain to have to own and store a bunch of extra gear for that one situation, but if heavy/loud music is your thing and especially if there's no PA support then you don't have a choice.

    Yes, TALKing bass & specs arguments. Show me a band in which this is true. A heavy/LOUD band like yours I mean, without PA support.

    Don't waste your time putting much stock in the stories about a 1x15 matching a 4x10. There are a LOT of variables of course, and it's probably possible if comparing extremes of cost and design, but the biggest variable is people in the "honeymoon phase" trying to breathlessly justify their expense while purporting to be in a "LOUD" band which they clearly are not by any kind of heavy metal or hard rock standards.

    Put it another way, you've basically put each of your 1x15 cones against a Marshall half-stack. Unless the guitarists are playing Telecasters with their amps below "2" and the bass rolled off, you'll need more than good luck with that.

    Another factor is whether you're boosting the low end on your bass or amp. Fingerstyle or pick? I agree with the low-pass filter suggestion, but ultimately you're extremely limited in your situation with the cab you have.

    Plenty of unknowns however the one known is that more cabs/cones will get you there, most easily and likely most inexpensively.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  16. pglaser01

    pglaser01

    Mar 19, 2013
    St. Louis, MO
    If only I were that good....
    If you're looking at a pair of 410s.....does this mean you'll have to sell the 215 to fund?

    Store near you that you can rent or buy with easy refund option?

    I say this because, if you only need more speakers (which, in full disclosure I'm agreeing with) you shouldn't need a high end pair to be able to tell you that's why he case. Now, again if you don't need to sell your current 215, what would the price difference be getting another 215 rig vs a pair of 410s?
     
    StayLow likes this.
  17. Then you're not really sure about the optimization?

    What's the issue with bass in the FOH?
    At least the sound guy (not calling him a sound engineer at this point) can mic your cab if he has the jitters about a D.I. connection.

    How is your EQ? Is it bass heavy? If so you may have a lot of your available power not being put to good use.
    Nobody hears that low s4!t anyway and you're rig is just working hard for nothing. Cut the bass, get the mids up.

    If all else fails and you have to move more air than the 15s will do, you need to put a lot more speaker cone area into it. Double what ya have or go home. I know that means two new cabs, but unless you're band is going to be reasonable, maybe home or another band is a better place?
     
  18. lethal dose

    lethal dose

    Apr 10, 2016
    Lotsa replies. Gonna try to hit the main points.

    As far as eq, I basically run flat with freqs below 50hz cut out. I do run a slight mid boost as most of my basses are precision-style and I feel that suits them well. I don’t want to go with an additional 2x15 for a few reasons. 1) It’ll be hard to find a matching cab as they are long out of production. 2) I’d have to buy a $400 set of kappas. 3) I’d be netting 2ohms. My amp is only stable to 4ohms. I have no problems selling my gear and starting over. I don’t, however, want to score gear that I like less in regards to tone and end up in the same place or worse in regards to clean SPL. The fella interested in trading doesn’t feel comfortable with me borrowing and testing- which I completely understand. Maybe I need to buy, decide, return, then trade.
     
  19. lethal dose

    lethal dose

    Apr 10, 2016
    I understand the “adding cone area” bit... BUT... if a commercially available 4x10 has 800w thermal rms rating, but the mechanical limits are reached at, lets say (for simplicity’s sake), 300w... I have a net of 600 watts of power handling before the cabs fart out. I’m back at square one (or worse). You can only move he amount of air a speaker is willing to allow before it quits. Now, if we were talking about a cab full of 3010ho or similar, we wouldn be having this discussion. But then again, it’d be a $1500 cab. Am I understanding things, @DukeLeJeune?
     
  20. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    The short answer is, yes.

    However, excursion-limited power handling is not really a single number. Assuming it's a vented cab, excursion-limited power handling has some ups and downs south of 100 Hz, and goes down rapidly below the cab's tuning frequency. Hence the suggestion that a high-pass filter might help.

    But you probably already knew that, because you did say, "for simplicity's sake".

    You mentioned the 3010HO... its parameters are not well suited for electric bass, imo; the low end would be weak. Just about everything's a tradeoff, unfortunately!
     
    wave rider and Old Garage-Bander like this.

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