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Rig problem: 1210 too middy?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by ::::BASSIST::::, Apr 7, 2006.


  1. ::::BASSIST::::

    ::::BASSIST:::: Progress Not Perfection.

    Sep 2, 2004
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    I am having a bit of problem with my rig. I run a line 6 Bass Podxt as pre, Focus SA II, and schroe 1210. I find there is too much mids without enough bass. The E string doesnt have enough girth while the A is overpowering in comparison. I tried a number of things to correct this. I used two different basses, (Fender passive Jazz with chromes, and SX active P with Labellas) that didnt eliminate the problem. I even tried going straight into the focus sa poweramp to see if it was a problem with the bass pod, but again it was not eliminated. The only constant is the cab, my 1210. The A string is just too loud compared with the others and the E is not "bassy" enough.This is with both basses, one of which the action is very low with all the strings at a very even height ratio compared to one another.

    Many have said that the 1210 has alot of mids so maybe this is what is leading to the problem?

    I am not a low-end freak. I like a tight, focused E. So I dont think I am being overly demanding. In general, I like mids because they help me cut thru. But in this situation its like the A is right next to the pickup and E is too far away from the pick-up. But this isnt true with either bass. Both have the E very low. On the SX the E string saddle wont go any lower/ is bottomed out.

    It seems to me I must be missing something, but going straight into a poweramp and using two different basses leaves me with the same problem which leads me to believe it must be the cab.

    Suggestions as to what I may have missed?
     
  2. I don't think you are missing anything. I have found this to be true for my rig as well. I have read many threads where people have discussed certain rigs not being that compatible with Schros if both are heavy mid oriented.

    I found that if you cut the mids back on the bass and pre, and boost the bass, you can EQ most of that to your satisfaction. I realize that this may not be all that desirable, but my only other suggestion would be to either try a different rig: (pre/amp combo or amp head) or move up to a 21012L. It has a more low end oriented voicing that I find much more to my liking, but it still has very articulate highs as well.
     
  3. MikeBass

    MikeBass Supporting Member

    Nov 4, 2003
    Royal, Oak, MI.

    I assume you tried this with the cab/rig in different rooms?
    If not, it almost sounds like you have a "hot spot" or resonant frequency that is more pronounced than any other.
    In my bassment, my bass would be crazy loud when I played an open D string. Or any other D for that matter, but the open D seemed to be the worse.
    Once I got the basement finished with carpet and drywall and stuff, POOF!! it went away.
    So, if this all happened with your rig in one area, then maybe move it around, away from the wall or something.
     
  4. el_Kabong

    el_Kabong

    Jul 11, 2005
    The only thing I can see that you haven't tried is a different cab with your regular setup. If you want to be certain it's the cab I suggest keeping everything the same as usual except the cab. Might even be worth hiring an alternative if you have to. Changing cabs can get expensive pretty quick, especially if it doesn't fix the issue.
     
  5. dave_bass5

    dave_bass5

    May 28, 2004
    London, UK.
    I found that as well with my ABM but since i got a MB SA450 it seems to have tamed the mids a bit. The SA450 seems more flat and clearer in the mids so i dont mind them so much now
    One thing i notice with my rig is that you have to be away from the rig to hear how it sounds. standing right in front (and this is how i have to play most of the time ) you are hearing to much of it. Jorg told me (and others) that the cabs are designed to cut through the mix on stage so you really need to be standing more where you can hear everything.
    Saying all that though i do wish i had got a 1212 as there still seems a bit too much mid for my liking. i can get really deep lows and an even level on all strings now but that mid is still there. then again thats the beauty of the 1210 i guess.
     
  6. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member

    The 1210's do have a strong mid bump, but with a good solid amp, there's plenty of low end. I've played out of a POD before, and also the Focus..... my feeling is that is not the best match-up with the 1210. I did not prefer my Focus with the Schroeders at all. The good news about the 1210 is that when you pump some more bass in it, it totally takes it and evens out. However, if your amp/pre is not really capable of that, you might be in trouble.
     
  7. CLJMB

    CLJMB Supporting Member

    Jan 4, 2005
    North Alabama
    I am having the same issue as veganbass with my AI FocusII/Schroeder1210 setup. I had hoped that the very mid-strong voice I heard through the 1210 while practicing at home would result in a powerful, full voice with the loud rock band I play in. While it is quite loud for such a small box, it sounds even more middy, to the point of being boxy, with the band. To my ears, not nearly enough low bass, too much mids (I would guess in 500 -600 hz range), and not enough highs. Switching basses didn't help. The basses themselves tend to lose their unique sound, and instead sound very similar as their voicing is taken over by the Schroeder's. It does help somewhat to plug into the effects in on the Focus and bypass its front end. I have also tried switching amps, and did note some improvement with some amps, but no big differences. I really want to like the Schroeder, but I'm struggling with it. Is this the sound everyone is raving about or is their something wrong with mine?
     
  8. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member

    Per above.... Focus and Schroeder 1210... not a good thing IMO. They are stronly mid voiced though, and I can totally understand some not liking the 1210. I love it myself, and find that the strong mid punch, with a little 'real low end' pumped in from a good analog amp like the Thunderfunk, just sounds amazing. The Focus EQ is next to useless IMO... the only way those heads work is to match them with a cab where they sound good flat. I hated the Focus with my Berg also (at least for EB)... but thought it sounded great with the EpiUL's (at least the 112 and 410)... it's a very picky amp (just like the Walter Woods).

    Also, remember, especially with the 1210, that's a very small cab, and is the only 'smaller than a typical 210 cab' sized cab that I've EVER been able to play a loud gig with (and I've owned Acme, EA, Eden 210's, etc). Part of that reason is the low mid voicing of the cab... it's not going to sound as full and deep as a 410). However, just a little bass boost from an amp with a good solid low end, and IMO is sounds fabulous on the gig.

    It's not for everone though, just like any other cab. And, just so you know you are not nuts, those who don't like the 1210 site the same reason... to much low mid and not enough 'true low end'.
     
  9. Chef

    Chef Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    May 23, 2004
    Columbia MO
    Staff Reviewer; Bass Gear Magazine
    1) Listen to KJ here; he's run these pairings
    2) I use a 1210 for nearly 100% of my jobs now, both with DB, and electric. I find myself actually dialing out low end with DB, and running my EQ flat with electric. The big diff I think in my situation from yours is I'm using either a TFB420 or eden wt800B...both are pretty fat sounding naturally. It's been my experience-and maybe KJ's-that the Focus stuff "is not inherently deep in the low end."
    If you could try a different cab with your other bits, or a different head with the 1210 that might be informative.
    I presonally don't think the cab is the problem here-but I like Schroeder stuff. It is important to note that some folks don't-but I've not heard very many folks say that the 1210 under represents in the low frequencies...
     
  10. dave_bass5

    dave_bass5

    May 28, 2004
    London, UK.
    I agree with Chef
    The first time i tried a LMII with my 1210 i found i could shake the beer glasses on a table near to the stage to the point i could see the liquid moving. i had the low full up on the amp but even then i could still hear the growl of my E string on my Jazz.

    Chef, how far in front of the 1210 would you say you need to be before you are hearing the same as the people out front? i find i can get a perfect sound standing 3-4ft in front but at about 20ft the low has dissapeared.
     
  11. basss

    basss Supporting Member

    Aug 27, 2001
    NY
    The mid knob does a good job of scooping out excessive mids of my 1212 when I need it to. Maybe the 1210 mid bump sits higher than the Focus's mid knob can touch. And I wouldn't call the AI EQ 'useless'. Like others have said you have to like what's coming out of your bass. The EQ is useful for adjusting to the room but not great at making your bass sound different.
     
  12. Chef

    Chef Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    May 23, 2004
    Columbia MO
    Staff Reviewer; Bass Gear Magazine
    The veune I play at most frequently, I'm about 4 feet from my 1210, but I'm throwing 100 feet easy with no PA support...wierd room tho, we're playing on a balcony about 15ft off the main floor....
     
  13. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member

    'Useless' was too strong of a word... didn't mean that to come out so negatively. Interestingly, I find the Focus to be VERY colored sounding... I didn't hear mine as anywhere near 'flat'... they have a very, very strong midrange bump IMO. This becomes very clear when you play a DB through them IMO. That isn't a bad thing, but the way, but I find the AI stuff very 'voiced' toward the mids.

    Per my earlier comments, that strong mid voicing, combined with the mid voicing of the 1210, and the rather limited tone controls of the Focus is not the optimal combination IMO.
     
  14. Lonnybass

    Lonnybass Supporting Member

    Jul 19, 2000
    San Diego
    Endorsing Artist: Pedulla Basses
    In order to dial back the mids on the 1210 to a flatter setting, what's the optimal frequency selection using a parametric EQ? Coming from the world of Acmes to the world of Schroeders, it's definitely a change in the way of thinking - I've been so used to boosting mids for so long, the idea of actually cutting them (and still being able to be heard in the mix) is admittedly kind of strange!

    Lonnybass
     
  15. basss

    basss Supporting Member

    Aug 27, 2001
    NY
    I would agree that there is a color to the Focus. It doesn't feel as clear as the iAmp that it replaced. I don't know that I would describe it as a 'very, very, strong midrange bump' which makes me think of Ampeg. I hear more of a warmth in the midrange but still clear in that it lets the voice of each instrument come through. I can get plenty of highs and lows out of mine, although the lows tend to be looser than I've heard from bigger amps.
     
  16. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member

    I've never cut the mids on my 1210.... mids are a good thing! However, I find that punching up either the shelving bass control or a semi-parametric around 50 hz can really make that cab shine. It's amazing how much low end EQ those cabs can take without breaking up. Really amazing for their size.

    It seems to me the Schroe1210 is really wumping some DB's at the lower midrange (maybe 250hz), but that's a pure guess. Again, my experience is to leave the mids and treble alone and just put a few clicks of extra bass in to 'round out' the sound.

    Again, it's important to realize IMO that these cabs are kind of 'freaks of nature'.... extremely small but extremely loud... so they do behave differently. Quite frankly, I prefer the tone of my small 210 Berg cab to the 1210... but I'd need two of them to approach the volume of the 1210. There's always a trade-off in cab design. With the Acme's, it's that wonderful low end extension, but needing a ton of power to get volume out of them, and a lack of pushing enough air at those low frequencies (at least with the smaller versions) to really fill a room with sound. With the smaller Schroeders, it's a rather mid-present sound which results in lots of db's out of a small box, but to some, a lack of true low end. The good news is, with the right amp, I've found that low end to be easily EQ'd in.

    However, that being said, the smaller Schroeders are 'mid punchy'. If you don't prefer that tone, to me the only option is a larger cab or multiple smaller cabs that have more even voicing.
     
  17. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member

    +1 I would agree with all the above. They are amazing little amps, but they really do need to be 'matched' to the appropriately voiced speaker IMO to really shine. The Walter Woods is the same way IMO. My Walter sound very thin in the low end and a little harsh in the upper mids through my EpiUL cabs, but it sounds WONDERFUL through my Berg210S (the Walter also sounds not so good through any of the Schroeders I've tried it with).

    The Focus, however, seems to really kick through the EpiUL line, especially the cabs with a little more upper mid focus like the 410UL and 112UL.

    On the other hand, that Thunderfunk sounds good through everything.... I don't know quite why that is, but it does seem to be the case.
     
  18. Chef

    Chef Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    May 23, 2004
    Columbia MO
    Staff Reviewer; Bass Gear Magazine

    It's been my experience that with an amp that "pairs well" with the Schroeders" it is not necessary to eq the mid bump out. There are amps that accentuate this all on there own, and kinda double that frequency.
     
  19. bino

    bino

    Jun 27, 2002
    Orange County
    As of later today I'll be able to contribute more to this discussion (finally getting a 1212). I too like mids in a cab and presently use a Bagend S15 coax. Pretty middy cab that also gives the A and D strings a lot of weight. My E doesn't sound week, but the roll-off is quite noticeable on these little cabs. Even so, at loud volumes I really like it.

    I will say that at low volumes or with mellower music the mids can be too much. The cab just doesn't sound smooth and/or big without some eq-ing. That's when I cut mids (around 220k and 500k) and boost bass. I could see where having an amp with limited eq would make this difficult. I also only like this cab with certain basses... P-basses in particular. It sounds OK with a jazz bass, but I'd much prefer to have a cab with bigger lows.

    We'll see this weekend how the Schroeder compares.
     
  20. basss

    basss Supporting Member

    Aug 27, 2001
    NY
    Sorry to get of topic but can you describe your experience with the Focus/112UL combo especially in regards to tone and overall volume compared to the Schroeder? This box interests me but I'm worried I'd be giving up too much volume in comparison to the 1212.
     

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