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right, i wanna sound more out on 'So What'

Discussion in 'Music Theory [DB]' started by 33degrees, Aug 7, 2005.


  1. 33degrees

    33degrees

    Jun 4, 2005
    Spain
    anyone got any concepts to sound really out, for example, start on G7 (the 5 of Cmaj7) play a V7b9 lick and then just take it up in minor thirds until you reach the G again(think diminished), any others?
     
  2. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    Hal Galper once told me, "your outside **** is only as good as your inside ****". IMO, If you want to make any superimposition really work over Dmi/Ebmi, you'll want to be able to hear and sing it before trying to play it on the bass. To do otherwise is to go outside the realm of "music making" and venture into the realm of "neato theory trick". As always, YMMV, FWIW, MJQ, BBQ, PDQBACH, etc.

    That said, if you shift your perspective on the modal nature of the harmony and try to hear it as "tonic minor" instead of Dorian, there are a great number of harmonic formulas that you may already know from other tunes that will fit neatly over tonic minor and give you some jumping off points that you may already have in your ear.



















    P.S. - Patitucci plays great on "So What" changes. :D
     
  3. The way I see it one should never try to sound out, you have to learn to be musical not "in" or "out." Experiment see what sounds good, but don't look for ways to be dissonant or you'll sound like garble. What I have experimented with is different rhythms that break up the quarter note pluse and thinking of my walking bass line as a melody (the long time between chord changes allows you to more easily construct a melodic walking bass line that hads more than just chord outlines to the music). If you just want to sound out, that's easy: just play in Eb minor during the D minor parts and visa versa or play in Ab minor during the D and B during Eb, but true music (for me) comes through experimentation with the goal of making the music better, not sounding out.
     
  4. Pcocobass

    Pcocobass

    Jun 16, 2005
    New York
    Chris-

    I didn't know you were a GALPERITE. So you're probably sitting at home right now working on forward motion in your bass lines?
     
  5. Freddels

    Freddels Musical Anarchist

    Apr 7, 2005
    Sutton, MA
    Hal Galper is one of the main reasons I stopped playing many years ago. He was giving a clinic at NT and he told us that he had a difficult time making a living at music. That if there was anything else you could do, ANYTHING, do it b/c making a living at music was nearly impossible. He said that he was doing it b/c he didn't know how to do anything else. I thought to myself, if this guy can't make a living at music, how was I going to. :(
     
  6. Pcocobass

    Pcocobass

    Jun 16, 2005
    New York
    Wow...

    That's pretty terrible. I totally disagree with that. IMO, you gotta do what you love. I personally can't see myself doing ANYTHING else. So I must find a way to make it work. BTW, haven't you noticed that most great jazz musicians who are successful as musicians are also teachers? There's a reason this is so (at least partially). You gotta make it work somehow. There's always a way.
     
  7. Freddels

    Freddels Musical Anarchist

    Apr 7, 2005
    Sutton, MA
    Well that was 20 yrs ago. It was at a point when I wasn't happy with my playing. I didn't stop immediately but it was in the back of my mind for about a year or so after that.

    But I'm better now. :)

    I've recently got back into practicing and I'm enjoying myself.

    I now know that most of the great musicians are on the faculty of some place or teaching privately. Can't turn back time so I guess I'll work on MY forward motion.
     
  8. Quotes a Kentuckty Fried Jazz Fan "- P.S. - Patitucci plays great on "So What" changes." LOL LOL LOL

    I hope Chuck Sher has corrected the spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, not to mention got an editor's blue pencil out, before publishing Forward Motion.

    What sounds out depends on how the piano voices things or alternatively, buy some Albert Ayler for inspiration?
     
  9. Pcocobass

    Pcocobass

    Jun 16, 2005
    New York
    That made me chuckle...LOL :D

    Freddels-

    Glad your better...

    33 degrees-

    I personally like the type of player who can weave in and out of the changes, thereby creating a lot of tension and release.
     
  10. Freddels

    Freddels Musical Anarchist

    Apr 7, 2005
    Sutton, MA
    Playing "in" or "out" . . . well I kind of look at it like driving down the road. When you first start out, you're probably all over the road, sometime off the road and back on it again. Learning to drive within the boundaries of the roadway takes a lot of practice. When you've mastered this you will be able to drive anywhere on the road and sometimes you'll want to ride along the curb. Driving outside the boundaries of the road will be playing out. The true masters can skirt the boundaries and come back in at anytime, ride the edge on two wheels. They have the control (knowledge) to do that.

    If you try to play out before you have all the knowledge will not sound very good (IMHO) and doesn't really impress anyone. Are you trying to play "out" to create tension or are you trying to play "free jazz"?
     
  11. godoze

    godoze

    Oct 21, 2002
    I agree with Chris. One of my former teacher/torturers gave me the same advice years ago...
     
  12. Freddels

    Freddels Musical Anarchist

    Apr 7, 2005
    Sutton, MA
    I got my mind straight, Boss!
     
  13. Whether you weave down the road coz you can't steer a straight line or you do handbreak turns don the central reservation matters little - you still get arrested.

    True masters convice the jazz police its taught at Berklee, those in jail tried to blag it talking about artistic freedom :) .
     
  14. Freddels

    Freddels Musical Anarchist

    Apr 7, 2005
    Sutton, MA
    Oh, I should have said that this is a closed track, these are professional drivers, do not try this at home. :)
     
  15. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY


    Funny you should mention that since I've never thought about it, but I sometimes play " delayed target" basslines to create forward motion for the soloist. Don't think it has anything to do with Hal, though.


    My favorite Galper song: The Night Has 500 Eyes.
     
  16. Pcocobass

    Pcocobass

    Jun 16, 2005
    New York
    All I retained from one semester of Hal was swell and decay, swell and decay...... :D
     
  17. What's the point?
    There's alot more creative challenge when you accept the discipline of the form, as with the sonnet or haiku. If you're not up to it, that's another story. If you are up to it, why dishonor the composer's intent? Pick on another tune.
    This reminds me of the old line about the guy who was asked if he could play Giant Steps. He answered
    "Yes, but I use all my own changes."
     
  18. err...umm..maybe listen to free jazz :D
     
  19. 33degrees

    33degrees

    Jun 4, 2005
    Spain
    yea i just wanted some other ideas, you know, ideas, concepts are not dirty words, they are launching grounds to develope new ideas and different ways at looking at harmony/ expressing oneself. so........ tell us some cencepts , i'm enough free hippy / abstract/ searching / mad person myself already :hyper:
     
  20. ........