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Running a rack tuner in the signal path.....

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by teedub, Feb 18, 2006.


  1. I know it's not the BEST idea to do something like this, especially for a tone freak such as myself, but I'm sort of in a situation that requires it........I'll explain.

    Most sound engineers prefer to supply me with their own crappy DI box for a line out the board (which irks me), and would rarely, if ever, let me line out through the SVT-4 instead (which would be superb). This negates the MUTE function on the amp that I normally use for silent tuning (using the Tuner Out function, and keeping the tuner out of my signal path). So, I've since bought my own QUALITY DI, (Sansamp BDDI), and am running my signal as such: Bass --> Sennheiser Digital Wireless --> DTR-2 Tuner --> Sansamp BDDI --> SVT-4 Pro, using the MUTE function on the tuner for silent tuning.

    I AM, however, running into the problem that most people have complained about around the 'net, though not as severe as most have said. The added noise (hiss) is noticeable at very high (past 12 o'clock) volumes, but is not a huge deal for quieter gigs and rehearsals.

    I did read a review on Harmony Central that states that this problem has been addressed and fixed on the DTR-1000. So now I'm thinking of upgrading my tuner to the DTR-1000 from the DTR-2, and my problems would hopefully be solved.

    Here's a pic of my rack setup so you can visualize what I'm dealing with, it may help. :)

    [​IMG]

    Opinions from anyone and everyone would be MUCHLY appreciated!
    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. seansbrew

    seansbrew Supporting Member

    Oct 23, 2000
    Mesa AZ.

    You actually lug all that gear around with you to a gig, god bless you.:D But seriously, I wouldn't put the tuner in my signal path. If you have to tune without muting so be it, just be efficient.
     
  3. Fuzzhead

    Fuzzhead

    Sep 26, 2005
    Australia
    Personally I would run a true bypass looping pedal, like the Keeley one, between the wireless and the Sansamp, with the send going to the tuner and no return. Silent tuning, no sound degradation. :)

    An A/B pedal would work also.
     
  4. I run my wireless into my tuner, then into my preamp, and finally
    into my amp. I have noticed no problems with my signal.
    I get to use the mute switch on the tuner, and all is well.
    I've been using it this way for about 11 or 12 years now,
    and can't imagine not being able to mute in order to tune, or even
    mute for breaks between sets.
    I'm using an old Sabine RT1601, it's discontinued now, but I'm
    sure there are some on ebay or wherever.

    I hope you find something that works for you.
     
  5. I only take the WHOLE rig to BIG shows. ;) I've got a few variations that I can use for smaller clubs, coffee houses, and the like. :)

    Anyway, the Keeley bypass looping pedal looks SUPER sweet! That will completely solve my problems, and I can keep my workhorse DTR-2! Now, where can I find one cheap? :D

    If the DTR-1000 does at it says, and eliminates that problem, though, I'd be saving some $$$ by selling my DTR-2 and getting the DTR-1000, which go for around the same price on eBay. I'd just REALLY prefer to have as little in the way of my signal as possible.

    (On a side note, I've "downsized" my rig over the past years, mainly ditching the 2 big cabs and getting 1-2x10 and 1-1x15, and getting two smaller racks instead of one huge one . My goal was to be able to carry all of my gear all by myself! And now I can, but it takes a few trips to the car.........if only I had more coffee house gigs.;))
     
  6. Lonnybass

    Lonnybass Supporting Member

    Jul 19, 2000
    Minneapolis by way of Chicago
    Endorsing Artist: Pedulla Basses
    I'm a tone freak myself and have been running my bass into my Korg DTR before hitting the rest of the rig so that I can use the mute button - an EXTREMELY handy function to have, as you know. Honestly, there's no discernable difference to my ears. In a studio recording type of environment it might be worth taking out of the chain, but for live applications I haven't noticed a single noise problem from it in 5 years of gigging this way.

    Could the hiss be coming from somewhere else? Perhaps the wireless unit? Sounds like your gain staging could be off somewhere...

    Lonnybass
     
  7. From the process of elimination I've determined that the tuner is the problem. I tried every possible combination, even different cables.

    Are you running one of the newer DTR models? DTR-1000 or 2000?

    I've definitely heard mixed reactions from DTR-1 or 2 owners regarding this problem, some have no issue at all. But I think I've narrowed it down to this, and hadn't noticed it until I started running my signal through the tuner.

    Maybe I should look at getting the 1/4" jacks replaced, but that wouldn't be very cheap.

    I kind of need to work on a budget here, too. I, as most of us are here, am on a tight budget.........although my gear would tell you otherwise. Somehow I can always find some extra $$$ for a new piece of gear. Sad, isn't it. ;)
     
  8. Big D

    Big D

    May 26, 2004
    Orlando, FL
    I am running a Korg DTR-2000 with a similar path as yours: bass-->wireless-->tuner-->compressor-->head.

    I have no problem at all with the DTR-2000. It was not cheap but I cannot hear it at all in the signal path. I have it in the path so I can mute while tuning - my head does not have a mute feature.

    I got a "Boss FS-5L Footswitch - Latching" to control the mute. The mute button requires that you hold it down. With this latching footswitch you just hit it and tune. Hit it again when you are done. And you can be further from your rig while doing it.

    My old guitar player had the older Korg (DTR 1 or 2 I think) tuner in his path and it was hissy, etc. He had to take it out. The difference between the old and new units seems to be night and day.
     
  9. Looks like I'm going to take Fuzzhead's advice, and get the Keeley Bypass Looping Pedal. Actually it's already ordered! :hyper:

    I realize that I could have probably spent a little less by selling my current tuner and upgrading to the DTR-1000, but I still am not that keen on putting any more gear than I have to in my signal path. The DTR-2 has been a little workhorse for me for the past 8 years, and I can't see any good reason to get rid of it. The little bypass switcher could come in very handy for other applications, too, should they arise.

    Now that I've done this, though, watch the DTR-2 break down like a Ford Pinto. :meh: Nah, I doubt it.

    Thanks for all your help! I'll bring this one back to life when my switch arrives!
     
  10. Pickebass

    Pickebass Supporting Member

    Jul 12, 2004
    San Antonio, TX
    Interesting... I actually have multiple DTR-2s (I'm too lazy to re-rack) and use the sennheiser as my wireless. One of the DTRs I have had for over 10 years and have not had a problem. I usually run mine thru the effects loop or tuner out (depending on the amp) of my amplifier and have done so for many years. When I initially bought the tuner I had an SVT-3pro that I used.

    I find it odd that no one will let you use your DI. I ALWAYS use the DI out of my amps. If this is effecting your tone, make the soundman use your DI. Most soundmen don't have a problem with this. If they do, ask why. Maybe you can adjust your settings at the amp to allow for the use of your DI
     
  11. I had done the exact same as you for years, but that setup was rendered useless by having to DI using the box supplied by the soundman (what seemed like) every night (different cities, different soundpeople). There was the occasional time when I would find an engineer that would have no problem using the DI out of my amp, and everything was fantastic. For the ones that were steadfast in me using THEIR box, I would plead that I would be feeding them a completely PRE-EQ signal, and have had no problems with other engineers, and would even go so far as to explain WHY that is preferred. Some would bend, but some would not. Since I've gotten my OWN DI, there have been no qualms from any sound engineers. My switcher is on the way, and I'm actually quite thrilled that I can take the tuner out of my signal path once again. It's just too bad that I had to do this whole "switcheroo" in the first place. I've pleaded with the boys to hire our own sound engineer, but they couldn't be bothered. IMO, the sound engineer is as important a band member as any one of us. We have a lighting tech, why not a sound person?

    Anyway, end rant. :D

    Long and the short of it is.........problem solved.:bassist:
     
  12. Ended up going with the Loooper A/B switcher. Tight little package, and 100% handy. Can't wait to add it to the arsenal!
     
  13. Daytona955i

    Daytona955i

    Feb 17, 2005
    Albany, NY
    Isn't there a tuner out on that amp? And do you constantly run the sansamp in front of your rig or is it just a DI?
     
  14. I give a full explanation of the situation in my first post. :smug:

    Basically, yes, there's a tuner out, but when I'm forced to DI through the sound engineer's crappy box, in front of everything else, the mute function on the amp is negated, and thereby so is the Tuner Out option. If I hit mute, the house still gets a signal from my bass. I've since bought my own quality DI, (the SansAmp, which I'm running in front of the amp), and with the switcher, I'll be able to take the Tuner out of my signal path.

    Do you have any other suggestions? I'm always open to new ideas. :)

    EDIT: Off-topic, it's nice to hear some hardcore music with a quality bass tone, most bands just bury it. I dig.
     
  15. LiquidMidnight

    LiquidMidnight

    Dec 25, 2000
    I run my DTR-1000 in front of my preamp rather than the effects loop so as I'm muted FOH when I tune, and I haven't noticed any added noise or change in tone (and I have pretty discerning ears). I did have the bejesus scared out of me this weekend though, when the reason for my signal dropping in and out was due to a bad patch cable between the tuner and preamp. :D
     
  16. Yeah, as mentioned above, the DTR-1000 has addressed these issues that were existent in the older DTR-1 and DTR-2.

    Getting the Loooper was a cheaper alternative to selling the DTR-2 and upgrading to the DTR-1000, and I'd like to keep my signal path as tidy as possible. :)
     
  17. I hate anything in between my bass and amp. I just use a stand alone tuner and check my tuning at the end of each set. It's rare, given a good quality bass and decent technique, that you would have to tune more than that. I go through an entire night many times without having to retune.

    Plus... those rack tuners are almost as big as some good small amps out there:D

    How often do you guys need to tune your instruments? More than once a set?
     
  18. I exclusively play a 4-string (I see that you're exclusively a fiver ;)), and my latest steady gig is with a fellow that uses multiple tunings on his guitars during a show. I have to drop my E to a D and even a C on some songs, so being able to tune during the set is essential for me. I don't use it to "check" my tuning during the set, my bass is rock solid in that department. :)

    For The Saucermen (my main band), we also have songs that have the dropped D tuning, so I need to mute and quickly de-tune between songs, though we usually group them all together in the set for efficiency.

    I've tried the Hipshot D-tuner, but I prefer to just tune manually.
     
  19. Poon

    Poon

    May 20, 2003
    Los Angeles, CA
    I'm sorry for not understanding here...
    Maybe I'm not reading something right or i'm not reading at all.

    Why don't you just go...

    Bass ----> Wireless ----- > SVT 4-Pro use the Tuner Out and run it into the Korg Tuner and use one of the line out or effects loops and run the Sans Amp off there if all you are using it for is a DI. If you want the Sansamp in your signal path, just go

    Bass----> Wireless ------> Sansamp thru ------>SVT 4-Pro and use the Tuner Out and Mute Function on the amp?

    Maybe I'm not getting the huge dillema here?

    Edit: I saw the post about your soundmen being a problem. Just explain to them that you'll use be using it post amp. It's their job. I'm a big advocate on musicians being nice and respecting soundmen, as I've worked as a soundguy and tech plenty of times. But it works both ways...ultimately soundmen should accomodate the setups you have. We all know that musicians are supposed to be "starving musicians" if they are out playing and not on talkbass all day. So they'll respect you not having everything they want you to have.
     
  20. Steve

    Steve

    Aug 10, 2001
    I've run into that sound guy a thousand times.

    "Cool! A Rapco DI. Those things sound GREAT! Thanks. Here, let me get that thing up off the floor for you. It'll be safer on top of my amp rack...."

    Wait for the sound guy to turn around...patch the di between the tuner out and the preamp