Saddle up!

Discussion in 'Hardware, Setup & Repair [BG]' started by Ray Matthews, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. i have a Mexican Fender jazz that I’m having trouble getting the action how I want it on the E string.
    The problem is I like the action to be 2.5 mm but I can only get this if I let the saddle lie flat on the bridge plate.
    I would rather not shim the neck and my question is this...
    Are there any problems with letting the saddle lie flat on the plate?
    Any info gratefully accepted.
    Thanks guys
     
  2. guts

    guts

    Aug 13, 2018
    It should not be a problem. The only problem it might cause is a buzz where the saddle meets the bridge, but you would hear it. So as long as it sounds okay you're good.
     
    MattZilla and Ray Matthews like this.
  3. Turnaround

    Turnaround Commercial User

    May 6, 2004
    Toronto Canada
    Independent Instrument Technician - Retired
    With the saddle bottomed out, the break angle of the string over the saddle is likely to be less than optimum. That can result in some string rattle and some loss of transfer of string vibration to the body. Whether the latter is important or not is a matter of debate, however most luthiers recommend a break angle of 15 degrees at a minimum.

    Why the reticence about installing a shim?
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
    Lownote38 and MattZilla like this.
  4. Thanks for that.
    I’m concerned about the shim as when I’ve took a neck off in the past I’ve had real problems getting it back just right with no fret buzzing. Also I’ve heard if the shim isn't, hermetically speaking, perfect, the open wood on the bottom of the neck is open to moisture etc which can cause neck warp. The professional shims I’ve seen on-line all seem to have varying degrees of tilt which I’m concerned might cause too much relief in the neck.
    Do you think if the saddle sits high enough even though grounded it might still have the optimum angle you mentioned?
     
  5. guts

    guts

    Aug 13, 2018
    You can totally just stick a bit of business card in the neck pocket and be good to go. Won't do any harm at all as many of the people on this board who have done it many times will attest.

    If you bottom out your saddles the break angle probably won't be optimum, but it doesn't matter so long as it sounds good. You would hear any of the problems it could cause. On a guitar if you put it too low it can start to sound kind of like a sitar all warbly and buzzy but I've never seen that happen on a bass. Could happen though, I guess.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  6. Turnaround

    Turnaround Commercial User

    May 6, 2004
    Toronto Canada
    Independent Instrument Technician - Retired
    Let's address these things as you raised them.

    If nothing else changed, removing a neck and re-installing it will not cause fret buzz to suddenly occur. But it can cause you to be leery of removing a neck again. I suspect that the neck screws were threading into the body as well as the neck. That will prevent the neck from seating properly and that could be the source of the problem. It's very common. When you take the neck off check that the screw slide through the holes in the body - if they don't, drill them out to a slightly larger size so the screw can be pressed through rather than threaded through.

    I wouldn't worry about the wood on the underside of the neck where it joins the pocket. There's a finish in it that will inhibit moisture gain or loss.

    Shims do not cause relief in the neck. That is entirely controlled by the string tension, the stiffness of the neck and the action of the truss rod. The shim has no effect on relief.

    There may well be enough break angle with the saddle bottomed out on your bass. It will be less than I would like, but unless you are experiencing buzzes or rattles I would not be concerned.
     
    MattZilla, paco facile, JLS and 2 others like this.
  7. Thanks guys.
    Much appreciated advice.
    I know a lot of talkbass contributors would say I’m being too finicky about string height, and that half a mm isn’t something to fret (there’s that pun again) over. But I’ve had my E on 2.5 on all my basses since forever and I just can’t manage that James Jameson “you could drive a truck under my strings” technique.
     
    Matt Liebenau likes this.
  8. JohnArnson

    JohnArnson

    May 28, 2019
    Nothing to do with relief.

    I used an old credit card though, those made out of stiff plastic, as a flat shim in my neck pocket as I had a similar problem, and it works flawlessly and almost fitted the pocket perfectly.
     
  9.  
  10. Yeah, I meant a steeper angled neck rather than relief. Good point.
    I think a credit card might be the way to go if I decide to shim.
     
    JohnArnson likes this.
  11. Turnaround

    Turnaround Commercial User

    May 6, 2004
    Toronto Canada
    Independent Instrument Technician - Retired
    A business card will do. Fender used anything at hand - sandpaper, cardstock, whatever. If it impacted their tone they would have used something else - they were after all interested in sales. If a credit card shim gave them a competitive edge, they would have used that.
     
    Lownote38 likes this.
  12. I’ve certainly found all sorts of odd bits of card under bass necks new from the shop over the years.
    It’s funny to think of such a global brand as Fender working on the fly like that!
     
  13. Ok, so now I’m seriously considering going with the shim.
    Anyone got any last minute advice before I start?
     
  14. Turnaround

    Turnaround Commercial User

    May 6, 2004
    Toronto Canada
    Independent Instrument Technician - Retired
    Just remember to loosen the strings before attempting to take the neck off.
     
    Matt Liebenau likes this.
  15. Well, I did it. I shimmed and I’m glad I did. Got my action exactly how I want, and still got a mm or so left for lowering more if needed.
    I used 3 pieces of thin card from one of those card folder-type thingys, to the depth of a standard credit card.
    I cut them to the shape of the pocket but just a tiny bit smaller so as not to show when the neck is attached.
    Took a couple of hours but I really wanted to get the shims perfect, and I wanted to take my time and prepare everything just right.
    There is just under a mm gap between neck and pocket but that’s to be expected I suppose.
    The bass plays great and the neck seems to play exactly how it always did. I was a bit worried it wouldn’t but I’m relieved everything worked out fine.
    Thanks for all your help guys!
     
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  16. Turnaround

    Turnaround Commercial User

    May 6, 2004
    Toronto Canada
    Independent Instrument Technician - Retired
    You mean you used a full pocket shim? Why? One piece of card would have been plenty if it was about 1/2" wide laid across the butt end of the pocket.
     
    Lownote38 likes this.
  17. I wanted to keep the neck in the same exact alignment as it was playing so well!
     
  18. ricardol

    ricardol

    Dec 10, 2016
    Straightening a bowed neck could save you from installing a shim.
     
  19. Definitely not a bowed neck.
    The action was fine and played great right up the neck.
    I just want a mm or so play on my E string for seasonal adjustments and to get the action down to 2.5mm without bottoming out the saddle.
     
  20. Turnaround

    Turnaround Commercial User

    May 6, 2004
    Toronto Canada
    Independent Instrument Technician - Retired
    I don’t think you understand the geometry involved. A partial neck shim will not affect playability any differently than a full neck shim. But if it’s working for you, stay with it.
     
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