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Scales for Soloing (Advanced- Sorry)

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Luke125, May 22, 2001.


  1. Luke125

    Luke125

    Mar 6, 2001
    4 Chords in One: The Symmetric Diminished Scale

    By Lucas Pickford



    The scale known as the Symmetric Diminished scale (HWHWHWHW) or (R, b9, #9, 3rd, #11, 5th, 13, b7, R) is one the most useful and applicable scales in jazz. It's used primarily over dominant chords and the great thing about this scale is that because of its symmetrical nature, it fits four dominant chords at once all in minor third intervals. Since there are only twelve keys you need only to learn three symmetrical diminished scales and you've got at the dominant chords covered! (4 x 3=12). The scale is called symmetrical because the half step-whole step formula used to build it and because the relationship of chords to each other outlines a diminished chord. All the chords are a minor third apart from each other, which is the definition of a diminished chord. When you get this scale under your fingers and clear in your mind about where to use it, you'll notice a huge increase in your melodic vocabulary as it relates to soloing over dominant chords. Another great thing about this scale is that you can imply and superimpose triads and other chord changes that are out of the key and that is fun to do from time to time in your solos as well. Here goes.


    Symmetric Diminished Scale #1: C-Db-Eb-F#-G-A-Bb-C
    This scale fits over C7, Eb7, F#7, and A7. Remember, you build the scale using the (HWHWHWHW) formula starting on the roots of each one of these chords.

    Symmetric Diminished Scale #2: D-Eb-F-F#-G#-A-B-C-D
    This scale fits over D7, F7, Ab7, and B7.

    Symmetric Diminished Scale #3: E-F-G-G#-A#-B-C#-D-E
    This scale fits over E7, G7, Bb7, and Db7.

    That's it. That's all the scales. Learn these and you'll be amazed and the results. Next time I'll talk about some patterns you can use and some other cool ideas for using this scale in you solos.



    Lucas Pickford can be reached at his web site www.lucaspickford.com or by email at ljpickford@yahoo.com.
     
  2. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY

    Luke,

    it's nice to see you post a discussion oriented thread for a change, I noticed you posted in Dann Glenn's forum a while back also. This is a great place to discuss music theory. Not to be too nitpicky, but the Symmetric Diminished scale #1 should have an E-natural included as well: C-Db-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C.

    These scales can sound great, but you have to be careful where you use them...if any upper extensions are used in the chord voicing, it's important to match them with the scale choice. For example, this is Not a good scale choice for C7(9), or C7#9(#5), since the color tones of the dominant chord will clash with the diminished scale.

    Also, folks should be aware that there is another way of thinking of the Symmetrical diminished scale which is commonly used for soloing over diminished chords.... in this way of thinking, it's still alternating Whole steps and Half steps, but the order is reversed, like so:

    (W-H-W-H-W-H-W-H) or C-D-Eb-F-F#-G#-A-B-C

    Sometimes it is useful to think of them this way if you are looking at a chord symbol like Cdim7, Eb dim7, F#dim7, etc.

    I hope it doesn't sound too rude to say it, but your posts would look a lot less like SPAM if you didn't refer to yourself in the third person while posting your website address and email at the bottom. I know the moderators have deleted some of your posts as SPAM, and people have gotten bugged about the SPAM factor. It sounds like you have a lot of good information to offer, so how about joining in the discussions more often with a little give and take? That usually makes people warm right up.
     
  3. Chris, it is spam. He posted the identical thing at all three boards over at basslesson.com, including the same mistake you pointed out.

    IMO, this attitude like "learn these three scales and you'll really be playing some jazz" is exactly what's wrong with a lot of jazz and jazz education. The diminished scales are cool, but there's a lot more to jazz than that. They're certainly not something anyone would want to use too much of or all the time. His whole post is bullsh*t; "That's it. That's all the scales. Learn these and you'll be amazed at the results." What bullsh*t.
     
  4. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY

    Yeah, I know the feeling...I've posted somewhat flaming responses to several of the more obvious SPAM threads. In this case, I was trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and at least leave the door open to having an actual EXCHANGE OF IDEAS rather than the one way street it's always seemed to be so far. We'll see....

    What say you, moderators?
     
  5. I just have one question. Will this be a weekly column?
     
  6. john turner

    john turner You don't want to do that. Trust me. Staff Member Administrator

    Mar 14, 2000
    atlanta ga
    yeah, and will there be an editor to get the info correct? :D
     
  7. Boplicity

    Boplicity Supporting Member

    I deleted this guy once, maybe when I was moderating the "techniques" folder. What miffed me was that he does not "discuss." He posts a hit and run "lesson," then disappears. Thus no one can ask a question or make a correction. I wrote him and told him why I was deleting his post. He never answered. Now he's "hit and run" again.

    His web site has some interesting links, many jazz related. I think TalkBass used to be linked there, but it is no longer there. Maybe he took us out when I deleted his post and e-mailed him telling him why.
     
  8. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    Well, if the guy chooses - yet again - to ignore the opportunity to have an ACTUAL TWO-WAY DISCUSSION about the sh*t he's posting about, I'll be happy to turn editor in a second and shred each an every post of his I can find (not like that would be hard to do....). I noticed that he has a bunch of "lessons" posted on the homepage now, so I assumed (perhaps mistakenly) that he had made his peace with the mods and admin folks here...but if that's not the case I'll be happy to proofread and correct his theory mistakes AND "Fuquafy" his name at the same time. No problem.

    So, Luke - what about it? The clock is running.....





    (tick...)




    (tock....)
     
  9. Chris A

    Chris A Chemo sucks!

    Feb 25, 2000
    Manchester NH
    well,

    it's useful info, so I don't think I'll delete the thread, the spamming of 3 boards witht the same content has me a little peeved, but I don't want to prevent others from learning from this, and discussing it, too. So if no one else has any objections, I think I leave this one alone, for now.........

    Chris A.:rolleyes:
     
  10. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
  11. Boplicity

    Boplicity Supporting Member

    Chris A, I just really wish the guy would answer comments made about the lessons he posts. I left him up a long time too, but after it finally became aparent that he had absolutely no interest in conversing with us, I finally took him down.

    But, hey, I'm not second guessing you. Afterall, I learned something from his post. I even wrote down what his formula. I don't really know how to apply it, but I wrote it down anyway in my "Scales and Modes for Bass Guitar" book. Maybe some day, it will be useful.
     
  12. Angus

    Angus Supporting Member

    Apr 16, 2000
    Palo Alto, CA
    I like how in his "modes" lesson he put the modes in the incorrect order.
     
  13. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    I'm still "unsure" about this - I visited Lucas Pickford's website and found that it was a mine of useful stuff - lots of transcriptions and chord charts, which I fully intend to print out and use!!

    So, in a way, I am grateful that the links came up; but I agree with others that the methods are questionable to say the least!
     
  14. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    You know what's really annoying about that site? Most of the stuff I saw was stuff that he had nothing to do with - i.e., transcriptions he didn't do himself, tunes copied out of the Real Book, etc....it looks like he just grabbed a bunch of stuff he'd collected of OTHER PEOPLE'S WORK, scanned it, wrote a brief self-serving intro for each, and slapped it up on his site....and then he acts like he's done this great thing by doing so.

    "Come visit Pick's place...I'll be happy to take the credit for posting work done by other people, 'cause I want to promote my CD and become famous. Oh, but folks, I don't want to actually discuss anything about music....but I can play like Jaco, Stanley Clarke, and Chick Corea combined. You know that it's true because i scanned a bunch of their solos an posted them here. LOOK AT ME. LOOK AT ME! Doesn't the name LUCAS PICKFORD look so beautiful up in lights and plastered all over (cyber) hell and creation?"


    I stand by my cow.
     
  15. john turner

    john turner You don't want to do that. Trust me. Staff Member Administrator

    Mar 14, 2000
    atlanta ga
    yeah, i find it somewhat self-serving that this individual just posted this and disappeared, but then again, there are forums, like active bass, where they have lesson posting - it's not really meant to be a discussion as such, just somebody posting their lessons.

    perhaps mr. pickford thought (erroneously) that such was the case here.

    still, though, typos in a lesson are bad, m'kay?
     
  16. Boplicity

    Boplicity Supporting Member

    Nope, John, I personnaly e-mailed him when I deleted his post last month, explaining that his post would remain if he would discuss his "lessons" with our members answering their questions and comments about his post. I made it clear that we are a message board. He never bothered to reply. BUt he had to understand what was expected of him here.

    Too, I feel that his site would be more "genuine" if he stated up front the source of his transcriptions and make it clear they were chosen by him because he admired the work of the composers and performers, but not imply tacetly that he, himself, did the transcriptons. I do like his links. But TalkBass used to be linked there and it is not linked anymore. Seems like the least he could do is link us if he wants to "use" us for his own benefit.
     
  17. thayer182

    thayer182

    Oct 1, 2000
    I thought this thread was supposed to be about advanced musical theory and scales and stuff? well anyway, I need some advice. I'm a rock type of guy and have very little interest in jazz. I play guitar and bass and all that good stuff. in my original music I can't stand to have just a simple little bass line that merely follows whatever chord the guitar is playing. do any of you know some good scales or modes that I can take some patterns from and make some cool bass lines over minor based power chord riffing? I'm really into melodic stuff, not so much soloing. well if anyone can help me out then I would greatly appreciate it. minor and melodic minor scales don't seem to be cutting it anymore.
     
  18. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Staff Member Administrator

    Oct 19, 2000
    Louisville, KY
    Search for a thread called "Idiot's Guide to Scales" by Jazzbo. Also, when Jason sees your post, she'll probably link a website of two that should help you out.
     
  19. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    I just looked quickly and "grabbed" a few transcriptions of songs I was interested in - like Josie by Steely Dan and some other bass trasnscriptions. I must say I just assumed he had done them himself and didn't realise it was all "illegitimate"!

    Oh well - I got something out of it..... but now I feel guilty about it - thanks Chris! ;)