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Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by KCCAP1, Mar 4, 2008.

  1. KCCAP1


    Dec 31, 2006
    Need some advice here... I am the lead singing bass player in a classic rock and roll band. I play a Fender American Jazz Deluxe through an SVT Classic with a 1x15 + 2x10 Ampeg SVT Classic stack. I am thinking about going with a 4x10 neo type cab to save some weight and go down to one cab.

    I am carefully examining the Avatar 410 Neo and the Schroeder 410L. Based on my research and e-mails with both companies, the Eminence Drivers in the Avatar have exactly the same dynamic range as the Celestions in the Schroeder. The components: carpeting, handles, ect seem to be the similar. The Avatar is 7 lbs heavier and a couple of inches taller, but that is not a concern. What is a concern is getting a nice sound for classic rock and roll (Cream, Zep, Hendrix, etc). The main difference that I see is that the Avatar is a traditional bottom ported cab and the Schroeder has 2 of the 10s in a slanted baffle. The Schroeder, is of course much more $$$.

    I have corresponded with the owners of both companies and they were great. Avatar builds tons of cabinets and says that they are able to buy their components in bulk at a huge discount. Schroeder indicates that they build a cabinet at a time.

    I keep going back and forth. I have read rave reviews of both. I don't want to fall into the trap of "Schroeder is way better because it costs way more $$$...." or "Avatar is better because the Schroeder looks strange"

  2. BillMason

    BillMason Supporting Member

    Mar 6, 2007
    Avatar has a *great* product at a great price, I've never played either of those cabs, nor any Schroeders, but IMHO you cannot go wrong with Avatar in any circumstances, they are that good. I have an Avatar SB112 with the Delta speaker, I have no experience with the newer Neo speakers. My SB112 is awesome - to give you some perspective however, I have been playing since 1982 and have played Traynor/Yorkville, Peavey, G-K, and Ampeg cabs - none have exactly been "boutique" brands. Ampeg has had the best sound in my experience, but Avatar is a very close second if not equal for a fraction of the price, and way out in the lead when you consider what they call "price performance." You will not be hindered in any way buying Avatar, you'll just save money for strings and beer.
  3. I don't think you could go wrong with either. I have no experience playing the schroeder however. I do play Avatar daily and you can definately get the old school vibe via Avatar.
  4. zac2944


    Dec 28, 2004
    Rochester, NY
    I've played and owned both Avatar and Schroeder products, but not the 410s you are interested in. I owned an Avatar 210 and a now play a Schroeder 1212R.

    I had quality issues with the Avatar. The drivers that came with the cab made a buzzing sound. Avatar replaced them, but the replacements did the same thing. Avatar then said that it must be my fault. I sold the faulty Avatar here on TB and cut my losses.

    I've never had any isues with the Schroeder 1212R, or any other cab I've owned. Only the Avatar.

    The Avatar sounded just OK to me. Nothing that impressive. The Schroeder blew me away and still does. I imagine you would have the same experience with the 410s. And no, not just because they are more expensive. Jorge Schroeder's cabs are typically loud for thier size. Many people around here seem to think that and I have to agree.

    Now where did you hear the Schroeders have Celestion drivers in them? That's new to me.
  5. KCCAP1


    Dec 31, 2006
    Jorge indicated that the neos he uses are now Celestion.
  6. Only played through the Avatar, but IMO you can't go wrong with any Avatar product.
  7. zac2944


    Dec 28, 2004
    Rochester, NY
    Awesome! That's good to know. Thanks for the info.
  8. spectorbass83


    Jun 6, 2005
    If you can afford it, go for the Schroeder...
    Its lighter, more efficient, and will likely be louder. More importantly, it will cut through the mix better than the Avatar will - thats what Schroeders are known for.

    Bottom line -
    If you want a loud, light, efficient cabinet that will cut through any mix and price is not an issue, go for the Schroeder

    If you don't want to spend the extra money for the added benefits of the Schro, go with the Avatar - many people swear by them and you just can't beat it for the price!
  9. Altitude

    Altitude An ounce of perception, a pound of obscure. Supporting Member

    Mar 9, 2005
    Denver, nee Austin
    I assume you disclosed the problems you were having to the person to whom you sold that cabinet here on TalkBass?

    I have had no such quality issues with Avatar, and I have owned four of their cabinets in varying configurations (I still have three). From time to time I GAS for a high-end cabinet, especially an Epifani UL-410. I will probably give in sooner or later. But whenever I get close to pushing the button, I listen to one of the taper recordings we sometimes make of the band and compare it to taper recordings I download from archive.org with guys whom I know are playing high-dollar stuff.

    The conclusion I come to is that in the basement, in the studio, or in a controlled situation with the bass largely exposed, sure, the boutique cabinets outperform Avatar. The crossover and high end treatment in particular is one area where the difference is clearly audible (I have in fact upgraded the tweeter on my 4x10 and am considering doing so with the crossover - neither at significant expense).

    But in a live situation, with a band, and at stage volume, the difference seems to get lost to my ears. It begins to seem to me that in a club, with FOH, and surrounded by drums and an obnoxious guitarist, bass cabinets with similar features seem to sound much the same. On top of that, my cabinets take significantly more abuse than any other piece of equipment I own, and it's nice to think that $400 would completely replace my cabinet even if it were to be run over by a truck.

    All that said, I am a gear guy like most of us out here, and chances are I'll take the plunge on a nice cabinet at some point. I really do think Avatars are good products that would be completely sufficient for 95% of us, however. The 410 in particular is loud as heck and seems to be able to take whatever I give it from an amp perspective.

    And despite what I have said above, my 210 sounds totally sweet - I think that cabinet size is coincidentally perfect for the driver configuration and I would put it up against anything from a tone perspective. It is an 8-ohm cabinet and not especially loud on its own, though. I have to pair it with my 112 to create a mini-stack usable in a live situation. But that pairing really sounds excellent.

    Best luck.
  10. I'd be interested if the Schro's coloring would be able to give off a vintage vibe as convincingly as the Avatar... from what I've heard the Schro has an unmistable lower mid bump that is a little atypical for bass cabs... on the other hand, I'd think that the Avatar's with the neo would have a more traditional sound even though the neo would give a slightly more modern edge to things.

    Anybody have experience dialing in old school tones with the Schro?
  11. spectorbass83


    Jun 6, 2005
    These are characteristics of the medium sized enclosures such as the 1210 and 1212.

    The 410, 21012 and 412 have more of a traditional sound.

    Who was the guy that ran a Schroeder 310212 with a Fender bassman 300 pro? I'm sure he can give us input on Schroeders and vintage tone :)
  12. I picked up an Avatar 212 last week and it definitely is capable of an old school sound. I'm pushing it with a Carvin power amp fronted with an Ashdown pre. Smoove.
  13. zac2944


    Dec 28, 2004
    Rochester, NY

    Nah, I took the sucka for all he was worth!:ninja:

    Just kidding. I deducted the cost of two new drivers from Avatar for the buyer. He went with the neo drivers and as far as I know has not had any issues with them. My issue was with the Kappa drivers.

    FWIW, I only own a Schroeder because having a small loud cab that cuts on stage is very important to me. Tone is very low on my list of priorities. It is not my dream rig, it just works for my situation.

    I play in a large band, on small stages, in a big city. I don't get much room on some stages, I need to be heard through a 14 piece band, and I have to lug the stuff through city streets during the snowy winters. The 1212 was the best solution I could afford.

    If I was in a different situation I might go with a different setup.

    I recommend evaluating your situation before buying a new cab. What is more important to you? Tone? Size? Low end? Weight? Do you gig a lot? How do you transport your gear? What type of music are you playing and in what type of venues? These are the kind of questions you need to ask when trying to evaluate a cab purchase. Not "which on is better".

    There is no "best" or "better" cab, only ones that works better for your situation.
  14. Altitude

    Altitude An ounce of perception, a pound of obscure. Supporting Member

    Mar 9, 2005
    Denver, nee Austin
    :smug: I do think the value proposition of the Avatar 410 improves dramatically with the Neo drivers. I bought my 112 with a Kappa and subsequently replaced the driver with a Neo. It shaved about 5 pounds off of the weight IIRC, and now that 112 cabinet weighs something like 39 pounds. Super light.
  15. KCCAP1


    Dec 31, 2006
    Wow! I'm amazed at the fire I've started! You guys are awesome! Amazingly fast responses! Keep 'em coming!

    I'm going to give the Avatar a go. The Schroeder is way expensive, but putting that aside, the angled baffle design is flipping me out. I'm sure it works great is some situtations, but why is it that this design has never caught on in the bass amp world? I can't imagine that it is much more expensive to produce, so why is no other company (even ultra Boutinquey names like Bergantino) using it? (remember the Mazda rotary engine?) Jorge is a hell of a nice guy and I wish him all the best. :hyper:
  16. Malachi71


    Oct 11, 2007
    Is Avatar able to achieve an Ampeg sound?
  17. r379


    Jul 28, 2004
    Dallas, Texas
    I'd say it has caught on. Jorg's selling cabinets, isn't he?
  18. BadB


    May 25, 2005
    I have a Schroeder 21012 and it definitely cuts through, but not with a vibe that I find to be pleasing at all. In fact, most people I played with found it to be offensive, as well. Very honky, boxy type of sound. I did, however, manage to isolate the offending frequency range (800-900hZ) with the para eq on my Mesa Walkabout and kill it. Now I can actually tolerate the thing and consider it to be a decent cab. For the Ampeg SVT-CL, I hate to say it, I think it sounds best with the older Ampeg SVT410HLF cabinet. JMO, of course.
  19. BillMason

    BillMason Supporting Member

    Mar 6, 2007
    No, I wouldn't say that... it's different, but not different in a way that makes Ampeg better or Avatar better IMHO.
  20. 73jbass

    73jbass Supporting Member

    Apr 17, 2004
    I have owned both the Avatar,and Schroder,and INHO,the Avatar is the clear winner,not counting the price.I also has an Accugroove,and the Avatar whipped it too. Get 2 Avatars for the price of one boutique cab. You can't loose! The Neo 410 is awsome.

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