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Series & Parallel

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Jammin'John, Feb 19, 2005.


  1. Is this true ? :

    "Basically with the series connection you don't have as much control over the cone movement or damping and the sound is a little looser on the bottom . This way also has a little more texture in the sound and allows you to *hear* all ot the colorization of the output transformer at full chat . With the parallel connection you will have more control over cone excursion and a tighter bottom and won't have the risk of burning the output transformer :crying: up if a speaker should go south on you . Keep in mind the speaker gauge you use to connect your cabinets can affect the tone as well. with the larger gauge wires you will get a tighter tone with more highs and with smaller gauge less highs and more of a ringing sound due to less damping ( control ) on the feedback loop .

    Is that a real concern (burning up the output transformer) in series wiring ? :help:
    Would series wiring be a bad idea for a bass rig ?
    "a little looser on the bottom " ? :scowl:
    JJ
     
  2. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    Where did that come from? That doesn't sound right at all.
     
  3. Yep, the damping thing doesn't seem to compute.

    There is a risk of damaging an OT if you have all your speakers in series and one fails catastrophically and goes open...
     
  4. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    What kind of amp are we talking about? A tube amp?
     
  5. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    yeah i'd like to know where you quoted that from too. i keep thinking there was a thread about this not so long ago where some pretty screwy ideas were brought up. :meh:
     

  6. Well, I was talking about tube amps, as solid state amps don;t typically have OTs....:D;):p
     
  7. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    that's right. SS amps are strictly on salary. :p
     
  8. stropsrats

    stropsrats Owner: www.kennedyaudio.com

    Feb 14, 2005
    Valders, Wisconsin
    Altec was using output transformers, remember that far back?
    The mounted on the speakers. You can still see them in sports stadiums and such where they work good. But they fell out of favor. You have to be careful here because I recently said the word transformer and some guy added the word 'output' to my text and went on a rant about it. Got me in real trouble too. I sent a brief message to Mike about this after he closed the thread, and good job, it was getting way bizarre.
     
  9. The funny thing is that the inital "quote" actually reveals an apparently closely guarded "secret" of audio. Series connections to speakers have different properties than parallel connections. :bag:

    The actual quote is vaguely correct, but it greatly exaggerates the risk of series connections to an amp's output transformer. You'll need to worry MUCH more about the first series connected speaker in a series/parallel hookup than you will the output transformer of your amp. Power disappation may be equal among series or parallel connections resulting in "equal" impedances, BUT a lot of people ignore (or don't know) that it's the factor of CURRENT which makes things VERY different in respect to phase angle, damping, and heating in both output transformers and speaker voice coils. Since speaker coils are MUCH smaller and can take MUCH less heat than amp OT's, you need to worry about them, NOT your amp. Series hookups divide VOLTAGE among the connection in contrast to parallel hookups, which divide CURRENT among equal power input.
     
  10. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    thank you pbg for yet another informative post. :)
     
  11. stropsrats

    stropsrats Owner: www.kennedyaudio.com

    Feb 14, 2005
    Valders, Wisconsin
    Show me the math, or show me the money.
    Phillippsheads (8:7) verse 2
     
  12. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    +1 !
     
  13. stropsrats

    stropsrats Owner: www.kennedyaudio.com

    Feb 14, 2005
    Valders, Wisconsin
    To Pshyco- what would happen if the speakers were put into a set of five, the first being in parallel with two lines of series speakers. If we assume all are 16 ohms this works out to an 8 ohm cabinet. There is no single speaker that drops voltage preferentially to the others. Is this optimal then?
    To John- I see nothing bad in that quote, I sure don't like all this "sounds fishy" comments. That's what the web is here for, informal talk. Perhaps this quote should be less technical, like saying larger wires have more 'bandwidth'. Instead or trying to talk quality by micro metrics. It's a good general discussion, and we need more. But you have to consider that the one thing bad about all engineering is there are too many ways to skin a cat. I recently posted a few comments and the moderator of this darn board jumped up and down like he never even heard of a PNP or a class AB amp calling my comments essentially bull****. Don't get so heavy you guys.
    We're here to have a little fun and the liberty to spout off a bit is implied. It's funny, when I pay for a formal class and I want criticism when I say something questionable, I seldom get it.
     
  14. Rockbobmel

    Rockbobmel Supporting Member

    An Ampeg 8-10 uses 8- 32 ohm drivers, and the replacement EH (Eminence) SVT speakers are 32 ohm also. My Mesa Boogie P1000 uses 4- 8ohm 10s in P/S wiring in parallel with a 15 for a total 4 ohm load. My Eden 4-10 is 4- 8ohm in P/S. Soundwise, I have nothing to compare it to. They all seem to work fine. I would like to know the difference between the current/voltage as far as damping or sound "control" If you will.
     
  15. stropsrats

    stropsrats Owner: www.kennedyaudio.com

    Feb 14, 2005
    Valders, Wisconsin
    If you are open to options, we need more speaker specifications. The wattages, like the 15 inch may be important if it is in parallel with the other 4 because just like series acts as a voltage divider, the parallel divides the current. And current and angle provides the force on the voice coils. The coils also act in virtuo :cool: as pure resistance, like a light bulb filamet because their heating is proportional to voltage. It's like using two different math models and pretending each is independent of the other, and that's not totally true. So, long story short, we would need each of the speaker sensitivities as well. Wattage is tolerance, sensitivity is volume in relation to that wattage. How did you mean 'nothing to compare to'? As in you would like to hear a different cabinet from the same amp source? If so how many watts is the source and how many ohms is it stable down to? This you may find in the amplifier specifications or tech data. Are you Looking for punch and bone shaking or anything specific? Have you heard 21 inch speakers yet? :bassist:
     
  16. Rockbobmel

    Rockbobmel Supporting Member

    OK, this stuff is way over my head. I meant if I had all things the same, one cab in series/parallel and the other in parallel only. I have no idea what the speaker data is. I know that is not very heplful, I guess the question is complex as well as the answer. Thanks.
     
  17. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    Dude you're going to get into even more trouble if you want to question a mods actions in public. Read the rules!

    And you didn't get into trouble for anything you said, but rather for showing disrespect to a fellow TBer. Again, I say read the rules.
     
  18. stropsrats

    stropsrats Owner: www.kennedyaudio.com

    Feb 14, 2005
    Valders, Wisconsin
    This reminds me of Psych 101- that people have this tendency to exaggerate or belittle things. The speaker thing is can be simplified, but most people just think of it this way - sensitive speakers are way more expensive. It goes by Db, decibels. It's not hard to learn. How motivated you are is related to how hard it may seem at first. You have a lot of equipment listed, so I know you aren't really hard pressed for more speakers, and the ones that handle a lot of watts but still play so you can hear them with smaller amplifiers are real expensive. But, if you are considering downsizing, it would be worth your time to learn more about those specifications.
    Here above I'm getting drawn into preacher mode, and that's not my style, you guys drag everybody else down.

    It's easy to talk down on quality, but it feels a lot different when you are handed a pile of something you did NOT want. Did you know these things or would you rather have somebody stomp on the truth. Think about it.
    If you are rich or considered importatn maybe it just doesn't matter to you. You have rules you can impose on others who annoy your ego fit. Cheers? When's the last time you gave any free advice? How many mistakes do I have to correct before you catch on?
    Let me know I'll be there to skoff. Or should I just be brief and say 'like dude, I'ld like to be there when you tell your electronics engineer you don't have to balance any amplifier before you run it, in any way. (paraphrasing hillbilly logic)
     
  19. Hey, let's not get into another p***ing match. :)

    Yesterday I reacted too strongly. My response to stopsrats should have been something along the lines of "hmmm, since this is a little 60 watt solid state combo amp we're talking about, I'm a little unclear on your response." and left the poor guy with a broken amp to wonder why he should add speaker transformers, change capacitors, and recalibrate his amp. :confused:

    Oh well, back to the workbench. Maybe one day I'll figure out what to do with that-there o'sillyscope in the corner. :D
     
  20. Rockbobmel

    Rockbobmel Supporting Member

    I never heard of this term or reference before, what does it mean specifically???