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several power amp-related questions

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by silentstranger, Sep 23, 2002.

  1. Where to start...

    I play in two rock-ska bands, mostly in smallish club/bar gigs, but also the occasional 1500-capacity theater (which is not to say we come even close to filling them...:() I have two possible cab combinations in mind for my rig: 210+115, 210+410. The models I'm planning on are:
    Eden D210XLT (350w, 4 or 8 ohm)
    Eden D410XLT (700w, 4 or 8 ohm)
    Eden D115XLT (400w, 8ohm)

    I'm very undecided between the Eden WT800 head or a Navigator and QSC RMX850 or RMX1450.

    The D210XLT will almost certainly be 8ohm because I know of a used one I can get almost immediately. I want to be able to use just the 210 for smaller gigs, so with these amps, I would be bridging either 800w (WT800), 600w (RMX850) or 900w (RMX1450) into just the 210. It seems the usual recommendation is to run twice the cab's RMS wattage, so it seems that the 800 and the 1450 could possibly be risky in this application. I believe I'd be able to just not run the power amp at full power (hence the gain knobs...), but I don't like the idea of being able to easily melt my 210 (well, future 210) if I or someone else were to be careless. Am I just being paranoid?

    Now, on the other hand, with two cabs it seems I'd have the opposite problem. 8ohm power for the amps is between 200-280w, well below any of the cabs (especially the 410). I always hear how speakers sound bad if you don't give them enough power, so this would be far from ideal. The 410 would especially suffer, being 700w rms. I think maybe I could daisy-chain the cabs and bridge the QSCs to 4ohms which would have more power? That would eliminate the WT800 though, as it can only bridge 8ohms.

    So basically, I'm thoroughly confused. I'd like to be able to play the club gigs without worrying about destroying my 210, but have more than enough power to run two cabs in the best way possible, with enough volume that I'd never have to push the rig to its limit. Sorry to be so long...any input from all you tech enthusiasts would be hugely appreciated :)
  2. Well if it helps any, I run a 4ohm D-210T off one side of my Crest V1100 and an EV 2x15 off the other side. The D-210T is rated at 250 watts and the Crest pumps 550 watts into it. I've not only had it loud...I've had it fu@!king loud and the Eden cab has never whimpered. 900 watts might be enough to launch the the 210XLT into low Earth orbit, but I think with reasonable care you'll be OK. In your situation, I think I'd get the 4x10 and the 2x10 and get them both in 8ohm versions. That way you can daisy chain the cabs and bridge the QSC for maximum thrust yet still use one cab or the other with your WT-800 when you want to.
  3. Oh yeah, and just so you don't think I'm a lazy bastard... I did search the archives and found a rather insurmountable number of pseudo-related posts (2700 or so?); after reading about ten pages of search results without finding anything that really answered my question, I decided a new post might be the better solution. :rolleyes:
  4. Hm, there weren't any replies when I started my second post. In any case, thanks for the input, Mud. I should clarify, however, that I don't own any of this equipment yet, and once I do, it'll either be the WT800 or a QSC+Navigator, not both; one of those setups will have to do it all.
    (Now resuming drooling over how cool it would be if I could actually afford both...)
  5. Munjibunga

    Munjibunga Retired Member

    May 6, 2000
    San Diego (when not at Groom Lake)
    Independent Contractor to Bass San Diego
    I have a 210XLT, a 410XLT and a 115XL. Small gigs, I use the 210. Medium gigs indoors and small gigs outdoors, the 410, or maybe the 115+210. Big indoor gigs and medium outdoor gigs, the 210+410. The last combo is mondo loud, and that's just with my little WT-300. It'd be a monster with a WT-800.

    I'd suggest you look into the XST series, 210 and 410. Gard says they rule in the largest way.
  6. For large gigs I think the 2x10 + 4x10 is going to be the way to go as Munjibunga implied in his post. I don't think a single 15 is going to move enough air to be of any real value in something as large as a 1500 seat theater.

    Sorry, I misunderstood your original post. I thought you already had the WT-800. That being the case, the WT-800 is a great amp, but I think the preamp/poweramp setup is the superior way to go. Unless you're planning on bi-amping, I'd still go with the 8ohm cabs and bridge the QSC.
  7. IMO that statement about speakers not sounding good if they don't have enough power is completely untrue. They sound fine.

    The issue is whether you're gonna have enough power to get the volume you need in your playing situation. If you have to crank your amp too high, the sound will be bad, but that will be true no matter what your cabs are rated at. If anything, you're safer in that scenario with more highly rated cabs, because you'll have a little more protection before you fry them.

    As for your original question, I would go the preamp/power amp route, specifically the 1450. The Eden WTs are great amps (I have a 400), but the QSCs just seem like slightly more serious power to me--especially if you're planning ever to run them at their minimum bridged impedance, which it sounds as if you are. That's a stressful application.

    If you're worried about frying the 210, try using just one side of the 1450. If you bridge, keep the gain at a moderate level. If you find with the 210 that even bridged you have to crank any of these amps too high (which is probably pretty unlikely), then you're probably trying to get too much out of a 210 and would need to use more speakers.
  8. Munji: Running a 210 and a 410 with a WT300? From my meager knowledge of this sort of thing, I would think that that would be asking for major clipping if you're running anywhere near capacity...apparently this is not the case though, right, or you likely wouldn't be able to do it? Shows how little I know. Regarding the XST series; I'd love to, but I don't think even Gard could cut me a steep enough deal so I could afford them new, and there aren't any on the used market so it's not really an option. :( However, is $400 a good price for a 1yr-old 210XLT in "excellent" condition?

    Richard: Talking to one of the tech guys at Eden about their stereo heads, I was told that they don't recommend using just one side of the amp...I don't know the reason. Is this just an Eden thing, or could this apply to QSC amps too?

    On a semi-related note, I recently came across the idea of buying a smaller Eden head (WT400, maybe even 300) to use for small gigs, and then use it as a pre with a QSC providing the power at larger shows. The WT400 would be essentially the same as a Navigator but with less buttons and lights, but still with the same Eden sound, right? Thoughts? Thanks all.
  9. Chad Michael

    Chad Michael Supporting Member

    Sep 19, 2001
    Pacific Northwest USA
    On a semi-related note, I recently came across the idea of buying a smaller Eden head (WT400, maybe even 300) to use for small gigs, and then use it as a pre with a QSC providing the power at larger shows. The WT400 would be essentially the same as a Navigator but with less buttons and lights, but still with the same Eden sound, right? Thoughts? Thanks all.


    (best idea yet)
  10. Hmm, I dunno, but my guess is it's mainly Eden being cautious. I've seen a lot of PA amps that have just been used on one side at times, and I used to use my old Carvin head that way often, without any problems.
  11. Bob Lee (QSC)

    Bob Lee (QSC) In case you missed it, I work for QSC Audio! Commercial User

    Jul 3, 2001
    Santa Ana, Calif.
    Former Technical Communications Developer, QSC Audio
    I don't know what Eden's reason is, but with QSC amps, and in fact with any solid state stereo amp made in the past few decades, you can use one, both, or no channels without harming the amp.

    Most tube power amps, though, require a load any time they're turned on.


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