Shooting in London

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by travatron4000, Jul 24, 2005.

  1. travatron4000


    Dec 27, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    does anyone else think that it was the brazilian's fault for running from the police not the police's fault for shooting him?
  2. Gard

    Gard Commercial User

    Mar 31, 2000
    Greensboro, NC, USA
    General Manager, Roscoe Guitars
    ...this might end up in TPA soon...


    ...but I think under the circumstances, anyone that runs from a police officer is taking their life in their hands, end of story.

    (Not getting into "right or wrong" with that, just dealing with facts: if you're in London right now, and a police officer says "freeze" you might want to really seriously consider following his suggestion...)
  3. AuG


    May 22, 2005
    Fort Collins, CO

    Well said. :D
  4. Gard

    Gard Commercial User

    Mar 31, 2000
    Greensboro, NC, USA
    General Manager, Roscoe Guitars the way, I have to add that the fact that an (apparantly) innocent individual has lost their life is a terrible tragedy. It just reinforces what I said originally though, if someone identifies themselves as a law officer, and asks you to stop, DO IT.

    I feel great empathy for the family of the person killed in London in this situation, however I stand by the fact that if he had ANY sense, he would have just stopped dead in his tracks. Jumping a turnstile (if he did so) is truly asking for a bullet (or 5) in the head at this time.

    :('s a sad time in the world.
  5. adisu

    adisu I admit it, I'm a "user"

    Apr 8, 2005
    TRUE but.... light finger on the trigger is no good as well , London police shouldn't get Into a general hysteria and shoot people at the subway.
    They should place a good security on the entrance to the places that might be a target for terror acts and then they'll know that the chance that the people inside the subway (for example) have explosives is infinitesimal and they can make a more reasonable decision if they should shoot or not.
  6. They don't have the manpower to watch every entrance to every subway station. If they did, the terrorists would go after something else anyway.

    Notice the victim in this case also wore a large thick bulky coat on a summer day, they assumed it was to conceal an explosive belt, then he ran.

    I believe when he tripped and fell, they assumed he would detonate it rather than be captured, and shot him to protect themselves and everyone else in the area.

    Doubtlessly a shame, definitely a misundertanding. If he was wearing a tank top they would have just arrested him, IMO. But after 2 subway bombings in 2 weeks, in a heavy coat in 70 degree weather, frantically running when you identify as a police officer?

    How do you arrest someone you think is a suicide bomber? That is the great unanswered question. Not covered in any police training. If you're right, they'll detonate and take you with them. Closest scenario is someone pointing a gun at you inside a coat. You shoot. If it turns out to be their finger there's not much you can do about it.

  7. I'll disagree on this one, just jumping a turntile and running doesn't warrant that. Its the combo of recent bombings, heavy bulky inappropriate coat for the weather and running that adds up to the bullet (or 5) in the head. I would've unloaded all 15 on him. Only way I would have stopped at 5 was if #5 was in the melon.

    God help them when its winter out and everyone's wearing bulky coats.

  8. Keep in mind that the cops were not in uniform and did not identify themselves-- I'd run myself.
  9. reggaeman


    Jul 12, 2005
    Couldn't have said it better myself!

    If you don't have anything to hide... then why the heck would you run?

    Add the fact that he is wearing an unusually heavy coat and running into the subway and you have yourself a very alarming situation.

    Now imagine he DID have a bomb and they did not shoot him and he was able to detonate it... I think the police did the right thing.

    Pure stupidity on the Brazillian mans part.

    People need to stop being so soft when it comes to terrorists. Its kill or be killed.
  10. They were plain clothes, but I thought they did identifiy themselves. Not saying the guy spoke English, though, in that case, it wouldn't matter.

  11. Also, bear in mind that intelligence was telling the Officers that the Brazilian had come from an address (albeit an address containing a number of flats) a note of which had been found in bags/rucksacks at two of the other crime scenes.

    I don't think we can be too critical of the Police in the circumstances although, sadly, the intelligence was at best misleading and at worst inaccurate. IMHO

    The Officer had a split second decision to make and he took it. Both he and the "victim" have my fullest sympathies and condolences. There are no "winners" in a situation like that.

    As I understand the position, they were in plain clothes but they DID identify themselves as "armed Police officers".
  12. Good point, I seem to remember reading that they had reason to suspect him besides the coat and the running, not just happened to run into him on the subway.

  13. see the footage of the (innocent as it turns out) asian man being arrested on whitehall opposite Downing street on thursday- by armed police in uniform.
    they made him put down his rucksack, open his shirt and then handcuffed him.
    this guy is probably thanking his lucky stars he didn't get arrested by the plain clothes police from friday.

    see also the footage going round the news programmes of the Israeli army dealing with a boy suicide bomber.
  14. Gard

    Gard Commercial User

    Mar 31, 2000
    Greensboro, NC, USA
    General Manager, Roscoe Guitars
    The point is, that pointing a firearm at someone to recieve compliance is only useful if that person wishes to continue living. A suicide bomber will just smile and push the button in that situation. Sometimes, a difficult decision will need to be made, if you fear an individual may be acting in some way to cause harm to others by blowing up a bomb strapped to themselves, the only way to possibly stop them is to take them out (euphemism for KILL :( ) before they can push a button.

    The Israeli Army dealing with the boy suicide bomber is a rare occurance, I'm sure...I'd say that kid really wasn't convinced he wanted to die. If he were, it wouldn't have ended as it did...

    ...again, it's a sick and sad world in which we live. :(
  15. adisu

    adisu I admit it, I'm a "user"

    Apr 8, 2005
    It's not the police who should watch the subway entrance.
    It should be a private security company who get paid by the subway company or by the government to put guards in every entrance of the subway.

    Here in israel every mall or central bass station or train station is guarded by a hired guard from one or another private security company. (only main airport is guarded by the police).
    So no matter where suicide bomber goes he knows he will probably have to walk trough a guard in his place to a crowded place.
  16. Bob Clayton

    Bob Clayton Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Aug 14, 2001
    Deptford, NJ
    even if he wasn't involved in the bombings, someone running away from the police doesn't exactly convey the idea that they are a normal law abiding citizen
  17. Tash


    Feb 13, 2005
    Bel Air Maryland
    This is true as long as you trust the police. Sadly you can't do that in some areas, Brazil being one of them. I could be wrong, as I don't live there, but I have aquaintences who've traveld SA extensively, including Brazil. They tell stories that are nearly as blood chilling as anything I've heard from any source. There running from police is usually a good idea, as the police are some of the most brutal individuals to be found anywhere. Better to take a round in the head than be rounded up and tourtured to death because an officer has a quota of suspects to fill for the month.

    That was probably what was going through the guys head. If you spent most of your life in a place where arrest almost always meant torture or death you'd probably run too.
  18. the BBC now claim the brazilian man was staying in the UK illegally (his visa had expired). this could explain why he ran off.

    now it is revealed he was shot 8 times- 7 times in the head, once in the shoulder.
  19. 7 times in the Gotta be sure I suppose. :meh:
  20. Bob Clayton

    Bob Clayton Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Aug 14, 2001
    Deptford, NJ
    i feel bad for the family at all

    but i can't blame the police.

    in a time of recent bombings in London, the guy was wearing a bulky jacket, that COULD have been used to conceal a bomb. and he ran from the police.

    sure, 7 times may seem like a lot, but in comparison, how many times would you WANT someone to be shot if he was trying to take control over an airplane here in ther US (or anywhere) you would want to make sure the threat is taken care of