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Sleeping 8x10?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by benmoore88, Jun 17, 2007.

  1. can anyone enlighten me as to why i sometimes see live acts with their 8x10s lying down , as such, on stage? is there any audio reason for this?
  2. more stage coupling
  3. ok. sorry but what exactly does stage coupling mean? that there is more low end?
  4. You use the stage as a natural mean to amplify your sound. That's why a lot of small combos get quieter when you lift them from the floor, since they are designed to use the floor to reflect the sound.
  5. will33


    May 22, 2006
    Any time you couple your cab to a surface, it raises bass response by 3db, that's a noticable increase in low end. Example, place on the floor and against a back wall, that's two surfaces coupling, the increase is 6 db in the bass, stuff it in a corner and it's 9db, three surfaces. A lot of times this causes mud in the sound but sometimes helps a bass shy cab in filling out the bottom end. The ampeg 810's with their tilt back and roll design are made to be coupled to the floor at all times to help with the weak low end of a sealed speaker system. Sound-wise it's better to stack speakers vertically, a skinny, tall stack will sound better out front than a short, wide one. The band was likely all run through the PA so the bass amp was for onstage volume only, that means just for the bass player and the guys in his band to hear, the audience is hearing all PA. It may have been done to get floor coupling so the band could feel more bass under their feet to get more of that rock-n-roll vibe which would cause hell for the soundman with low freqency vibration coming through the mike stands but was likely done just to be different, just for looks with no sound quality in mind whatsoever.
  6. anderbass


    Dec 20, 2005
    Phoenix. Az.
    Some good points already.
    But I also sometimes place my tall cab on its side at smaller gigs
    when I don't want my rig to appear so over sized for the situation.
  7. rockstarbassist

    rockstarbassist Inactive

    Apr 30, 2002
    The Woodlands, TX
    Endorsing Artist: HCAF
    According to the "Why 8x10?" megathread, the whole point of having an 8x10 is so if you're not 5' and under, you can hear it cause it's closer to your head!! What gives here??!? :bag: :bag:

  8. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    That may be the intent, but as far as that goes it won't make any difference.
    Boundary reinforcement is 6dB per surface, and the distance required to be from the boundary to get it is 1/4 wavelength or less. That applies to the entire cab, not just one or two drivers within it. So assuming you want boundary reinforcement off the floor from 100 Hz on down the bottom of the cab has to be within 2.8 feet of the floor. Raising the cab doesn't affect the low bass, but it does reduce midbass, and midbass is where boom is sourced.

    What will happen in this case is that the wider aspect ratio will result in increased comb-filtering, lessened horizontal dispersion and lowered intelligibility close to the cab, so that neither the audience nor the player will be able to hear it as well. I can't think of why anyone would want that, so the safe assumption is that the person so doing is operating under mistaken conclusions.
  9. *smb


    Nov 26, 2006
    I was going to type
    but it didn't feel right after the entirely sensible post preceeding mine!
  10. scotch

    scotch It's not rocket science!

    Nov 12, 2006
    Albany, NY USA
    Please see Profile for Endorsement disclosures
    I found this very interesting.

    I've read enough of your posts, billfitzmaurice, to acknowledge your expertise on the physics & technical measuring of speaker cabinets. I definitely wouldn't think of challenging you on these matters! I stink at math to begin with! ;)

    My experience as a player, however, isn't lining up with your conclusions regarding the resulting sound of an 8x10 on it's side. In certain situations, I've found that laying an 8x10 on it's side can greatly improve "intelligibility" near the cab. I assume "clarity" would also be an interchangeable term here. I should note that when I've layed the cab down, one or both of the following conditions have existed:
    -The cabinet was on an elevated riser (between 2-3 feet)
    -The cabinet was tilted up towards my ears

    Also, I'm generally using these big cabinets on large festival stages or larger theater/shed environments with pro PA support.

    While the technical aspects that you cite are certainly valid, I'm not sure that real-world empirical data always supports the scientific data.

    Again, please don't take this as a challenge. I totally respect & value your expertise on cabinets in these forums. I'm just sharing my personal experience.
  11. just wondering, laying it down speaker side down or speaker side up?
  12. They're talking about on the side... with the speakers pointing at the crowd.
  13. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Midrange is what gives definition, and midrange dispersion from drivers larger than 8 inches is quite narrow. By lifting and/or tilting you aimed that narrow beam of midrange up to where you could hear it.

    Which came first, the chicken (scientific data) or the egg (empirical improvisation)? The egg. The full explanation of how Edison's Morning Glory horn worked came decades after its invention. But eventually the science caught up with the facts, and now by dint of 130 odd years of observation science can almost perfectly predict the performance of audio devices. But not absolutely perfectly, which means there's still unexplored realms for guys like me to explore.
  14. scotch

    scotch It's not rocket science!

    Nov 12, 2006
    Albany, NY USA
    Please see Profile for Endorsement disclosures
    That makes sense to me. I don't know the science, but it seems like the surface of the cabinet itself also contributes to the near-field sound. I think some would argue that treble frequencies supply the definition, but I tend to agree with you, it's the upper midrange at work.

    It still baffles me how players (especially guitar) will set a small cabinet or combo amp that's only a couple of feet tall - set it on the floor about 3-4 feet away - point the drivers at their calf muscles - and wonder why they can't hear themselves while everyone else on stage & the first 4 rows are having their heads torn off!!! :rollno: Oh well, I digress....
  15. brisonic


    Jan 1, 2006
    san diego
    You can do heavy metal poses and stand on it if it on it's side :)
    If you use a rack setup with it, the rack could get pretty far off the ground if the cab is standing up. Dispersion pattern is a LOT different with the cab on its side, do you need more horizontal or vertical coverage?
  16. svtb15

    svtb15 Inactive

    Mar 22, 2004
    Austin,TX - McKinney,TX - NY,NY, - Nashville,TN
    I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
    i used to like laying my SVT on its side so i could had bass coming around both side of me. it also keeps the guitar player an extra 3 feet away...:smug:
  17. peterbright


    Jan 23, 2007
    On The Bayou
    The real answer is: If you get tired, you can sit on it.
  18. Mr_Dave


    Mar 11, 2005
    Melbourne, Australia
    Employee - Basscentre Melbourne
    if i had a fridge i'd lie it face down
  19. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    What really boggles is that they've managed to garner more than a week's playing experience without noticing that a cab sounds different depending on where you are in relation to it. Fender amps in the '60s had tilt-back legs to aim the cab up at you, so you can't say that this is a recently discovered phenomena.
  20. bastom


    Feb 15, 2006
    Dont wont to hijack this topic, but didn't think it was important enough to start a new topic about it, so...

    Besides laying them down...

    A: Is there a difference if you lay two 8x10's down on their side up eachother compared to two standing next to eachother?

    B: What happens if you point two 8x10's with their speakers to eachother? (so they are looking to each other)

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