Dismiss Notice

Psst... Ready to join TalkBass and start posting, make new friends, sell your gear, and more?  Register your free account in 30 seconds.

'Smokin At the Half Note' and other "live" recordings

Discussion in 'Recordings [DB]' started by peteroberts, Jun 16, 2004.


  1. so I'm checking out the subject disc again, listening and reading the info on the CD (not really liner notes)

    and it says...recorded at the Half Note and at Rudy Van Gelder's Studio???

    What did they do? Overdub solos? Anyone know specifically?

    Gets me wondering: how many unedited 'live' albums are out there? Isn't Bill Evans' 'Vanguard' completely live? Which others?
     
  2. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    I don't think there were any overdubs - it's just that the original album had some studio tracks as well as the live recording, I think..?
     
  3. I´m with Bruise on this. And I suppose, PETER OBERST, that you are familiar with those Rudy Van Gelder´s home studio recordings. Practically all of them are "live" recordings in the way that they were recorded directly to two tracks, and no overdubs were made. For example, all Miles´classic albums with the first quintet were recorded that way ( Smokin´, Steamin´, Relaxin´ and Cookin´) and that among other things makes them so special. Just a bunch of the most talented players of that time, gathering to a homy place, and blowing away like they´d done before in hundreds of gigs together. The good feeling is clearly audible.

    In this case ( Smokin´At The Half Note ), the difference between the club tracks and studio tracks is only the recording environment, if I remember right. One is Rudy´s living room ( without the audience ) and the other is Half Note ( with the club ambience, audience, noises and smell of old boose & tobacco ). Both are played once and once only.

    Wish they´d still make records like that..

    R2
     
  4. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    Yeah - virtually all 50s,60s Jazz recordings were like this - band walks into the studio, tunes up, plays - in the can - maybe one alternate take if there was a technical problem - band goes off to next date!!

    There wasn't the money, time or technology then, to do anything else - it was only when you got to pop artists with loads of money and time - like the Beatles/Beach Boys that the luxury of overdubs was considered !! ;)

    The first Jazz recordings to be deliberately edited - Miles' Bitches Brew and In a Silent way, caused a big uproar amongst fans and critics - many of whom don't consider it to be Jazz to this day !! :meh:
     
  5. Bruce, you could very easily save us all some grief by rewording that statement: To my knowledge, the first Jazz recordings to even be edited... When you make absolute statements like this which are in fact questionable, you open the door for everyone to come on here and bust your chops.

    There are no doubt more and older examples, but I am aware of some late 50's records by Horace Silver and Mingus with some pretty obvious splices where parts of different takes were patched together.
     
  6. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    Well - I meant that it was feature of the recording, that studio editing had been used - it was part of the 'concept' behind those albums -with Miles getting into what Hendrix had done with studio albums...electric music etc.
     
  7. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    NYC
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    Then wouldn't it just be easier to say that in the first place? Or is this just a way to get your post count up?

    POST 1 - I'm saying THIS.
    POST 2 - What I meant to say was...
     
  8. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    I just write what I think - as if I was having a conversation in a bar - I'm not sure I'd want to chat to someone who kept correcting my grammar or my style of talking - specially after I'd had a few drinks!! ;)

    It's known as a conversational style!! :D
     
  9. Davehenning

    Davehenning

    Aug 9, 2001
    Los Angeles
    Listen to "The Quintet: Live At Massey Hall." Mingus, not happy with his performance, overdubbed some of his bass solos on the live recording afterwards. (Early 50s and predates Miles by almost 15 years) Bill Evans's overdubbed album "Conversations with myself" is also quite interesting.

    Screw the critics. Means and method are irrelevant when it comes to recording. The end result of sound and performance is all that matters.
     
  10. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    NYC
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    Pedantic, too. It's not so much that you write what you think as it is your consistent objections when it is pointed out that what you said just ain't right. Nobody's correcting your grammar here, just your facts.
     
  11. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    Well I was just agreeing with arto that the vast majority of Jazz recordings in the 60s and before were live - is anybody doubting that?
     
  12. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    NYC
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.

    Main Entry: pe·dan·tic
    Pronunciation: pi-'dan-tik
    Function: adjective
    1 : of, relating to, or being a pedant
    2 : narrowly, stodgily, and often ostentatiously learned
    3 : UNIMAGINATIVE, PEDESTRIAN
    - pe·dan·ti·cal·ly /-'dan-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb
     
  13. OK thanks for the info. I was pretty sure all those 'studio' records were in fact cut live to 2-track tape...but later on I had heard that on some rock 'live' records some solos were overdubbed or 'punched'...maybe because the live performance was not up to snuff?

    I was just wondering if there was any 'punching' done on those records. I don't know if they had the capability to do that in the 40's/50's, even early 60's?
     
  14. Davehenning

    Davehenning

    Aug 9, 2001
    Los Angeles
    Les Paul pioneered overdubbing in (IIRC) the late 40s/early 50s. I saw a 1950's television duo performance of he and his late wife Mary Ford. Les overdubbed several guitar tracks on the spot and performed "How High the Moon" with Mary singing. It was quite impressive.

    I do agree that while some records have "punches" for performance reasons, others are sometimes for "artistic reasons." (see my Mingus reference above) I highly doubt Mingus's performance was not up to snuff, he probably felt he did not get across his ideas the way he wanted to at the time of the actual recording.