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Songs containing chords from harmonic minor/melodic minor parent

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by miltslackford, Jan 8, 2012.


  1. miltslackford

    miltslackford

    Oct 14, 2009
    Hi

    Does anybody have any examples of tunes containing chords from a harmonic minor/ melodic minor parent?

    Thanks!
     
  2. theretheyare

    theretheyare

    Sep 4, 2010
    Brooklyn, NY
    Endorsing: Arkham Vacuum Tube Amplification
    If you mean tunes where the chords relate to those scales, I'd say listen to some Django Reinhardt/gypsy jazz. Black eyes, Minor Swing are very obvious choices, but practically any tune from that repertoire works from that perspective
     
  3. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    A minor tonality usually have more then one scale to cover all the chords in a chord progression in minor but Autumn Leaves can give you a good blend of minor H, min M and the Maj scale.

    For example, the first 4 bars come from the relative major scale of the minor key. If the song is in G minor, the first 4 bars are in Bb major then the next 2 bars are the ii-v of Gmin and are built from the G minor harmonic scale then you can land on the I min6( Gmin6) and then you shift to G minor melodic for the next 2 bars. If for example the ii-v minor land on the Gmin7 then you can play relative minor scale or Aeolian mode.
     
  4. anonymous111813

    anonymous111813 Guest

    Mar 1, 2011
    Most Jazz standards feature a II-V-I progression in a minor key use the V7 chord that comes from harmonic minor.

    This might help you: Jazz Harmonielehre - johannes-oehls Jimdo-Page!

    Autumn Leaves is a good example for that, like Groove Master said.

    I got a transcription here:

    Walking Bass Lernen - johannes-oehls Jimdo-Page!

    It´s based on the Autumn Leaves chord progression. If you download the .pdf and take a look to bar 6, you see a B7 chord that leads to Em7, the tonic chord.
     
  5. miltslackford

    miltslackford

    Oct 14, 2009
    Hi thanks for the suggestions. I'm aware of minor ii-Vs containing a Vb9, but was interested in whether there were any tunes where the other chords from these parents would be expressly needed? For example are augmented chords implicitly part of a minor tonality because mode three of the two minor parents are lydian augmented and ionIan augmented?
     
  6. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    As far as I know not really. Like I said before a song in a minor will often use the 3 minor scales (melodic,harmonic and natural) in the harmony. Like for that 3rd degree,very often it will shift to the natural minor to make it a straight Major 7 chord unless the melody calls for and augmented maj chord.

    One very important thing to remember is that the modes from the melodic minor scale don't refer to key functions in comparaison with the harmonic minor that does define a minor key with its own II-V that contains the b6 note from the parent scale in these two chords.The minor melodic doesn't have that very important note to define the minor sound in the harmony. But the modes you can build from that scale fits more complex chords like dominant Lydian , the Locrian #2, the V9 in a minor key and of course the altered scale.
    For example the 7th mode of the minor melodic scale that is use to build the altered scale will more likely to be played on a V in the key,not as a VII.

    One kind of piece that can almost be all from the harmonic scale and the natural minor is a simple minor blues.
     
  7. anonymous111813

    anonymous111813 Guest

    Mar 1, 2011
    I think it is not really commonly used, but as part of reharmonisation, especially in modern Jazz. I will go through some songs and see what I can find.
     
  8. miltslackford

    miltslackford

    Oct 14, 2009
    Thanks guys.

    Johannes, there's a tune by Roland kirk called 'black diamond'. It has a series of augmented chords in the B section. If you have any ideas on how to think of that re is it a tonality, or best approached as a series of individual chords, let me know. It's just an example so no worries if you haven't heard of it. Look forward to any other things you find. Thanks again
     
  9. anonymous111813

    anonymous111813 Guest

    Mar 1, 2011
    That is a killer song, do you have a chord sheet for it?

    By the way, I guess most augmented chords are just used to build up tension and are not necessarily connected to a harm/mel minor scale.
     
  10. miltslackford

    miltslackford

    Oct 14, 2009
    I have a lead sheet on my computer at home. I'm at the studio right now so I can't get it. But I think I just hot it from a Google search.

    It's a shame I can't figure out how to approach those augmented chords cos it's one of my favourite jazz tunes. Roland plays too fast for me to figure out what the hell he's doing. Maybe I'll try slowing it down.
     
  11. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    please try to post it. I will love to look at it.
     
  12. Stick_Player

    Stick_Player Banned

    Nov 13, 2009
    Somewhere on the Alaska Panhandle (Juneau)
    Endorser: Plants vs. Zombies Pea Shooters
    Why analyze the harmony this way? I can’t even follow it.

    The first eight measures are ALL in G minor (per your key designation):

    || Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 | A[SUP]ø[/SUP]7 | D7 | Gm | Gm ||

    or

    || iv7 | bVII | III7 | VI7 | ii[SUP]ø[/SUP]7 | V7 | i | i ||

    Why confuse things? The first four measure are NOT in Bb Major. Then something about the Aeolian Mode?

    No.

    Just use the notes from the G Minor Scale: G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F for your pitch collection. NOT G Aeolian! G Aeolian would NEVER contain a harmony with an F#.

    Over the V7 (measure 6) use EITHER: D or D#, depending on the line direction of your improvisation. No Aeolian Mode! One has the three minor scales to work from (as you did point out). Work with the -9/+9 extension i.e., C and C##).

    Be careful using a G minor chord with an added sixth. It has different spellings depending on which Minor scale/harmony is being used.

    G Natural Minor: G, Bb, D, Eb.
    G Melodic Minor G, Bb, D, E.
    G Harmonic Minor G, Bb, D, E.

    Groove, you make things too complicated.

    You do sound exceedingly good on the posted video.
     
  13. Pretty much every song written in "minor key" will have combinations of harmonic minor / melodic minor / natural minor.

    Harmonic minor - to get a minor iV chord and a major triad V chord ( 4 notes -> Dominant 7 V7 chord)

    Melodic minor - avoid an augmented 2nd melodic interval between b6 - 7 to have 6-7 instead in those styles that preferred it.

    Natural minor - to get the minor sound in descend melodic lines from root to fifth : 8 - b7 -b6 - 5

    These will be used throughout the songs or piece as needed.
    For tonal music in a nugget, J.S. Bach's WTC books 1 and 2 offer a lot of material.
     
  14. mambo4

    mambo4

    Jun 9, 2006
    Dallas
    Many of Sting's solo stuff utilizes ideas form harmonic minor, tho he too mixes it up with natural minor. Moon over Bourbon Street is a fairly straightforward E harmonic minor cadence. Mad About You I think uses that augmented iii chord...
     
  15. Groove Master

    Groove Master

    Apr 22, 2011
    Montreal
    Author of Groove 101, Slap 101 and Technique 101
    I am not, you are!!!

    There is no way these 4 bars can be heard like you stated. a ii-v-i-iv is the most definitive sequence of chords that can define a key center.

    What you wrote is like a very clinical way to think and does not represent how music is heard.

    I don't know how you hear things but it looks ok on paper but not thru musician's ears.

    You should try to sit back and learn from it instead of always doubting how real pros are dealing with that stuff . I suggest you take the time to see how others deal with that stuff.

    BTW what do you do with your D7 without the F#? Very important chord-tone actually, the most important in fact. It is not even present in your way of thinking! It is in my way of hearing things and in my very clear and strong explanation.

    Thanks for the compliment anyway, I'm not sure how to take it though.
     
  16. Stick_Player

    Stick_Player Banned

    Nov 13, 2009
    Somewhere on the Alaska Panhandle (Juneau)
    Endorser: Plants vs. Zombies Pea Shooters
    So in your hearing universe, we have a: || ii7 | V7 | I7 | in the key of Bb Major, for the first three measure? :eyebrow:

    Nope. :rollno:

    The tune is in G Minor (per your designation). The three note pick up is in the tonal center of G Minor. In fact, the FIRST note is G.

    Sound a G Minor chord, then play the pick up - hint: look at measure 8. This may help orient you to the true Key Center.

    Gm ||: Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 | A[SUP]ø[/SUP]7 | D7 | Gm | Gm :||

    Don't you see the Root-movement pattern? :eek:

    (G) ||: C | F | Bb | Eb | A | D | G | G :||

    It's as clear as a bell, cycling from the Tonic to the Tonic by way od diatonic fifths, from the G Minor scale.

    It's pretty simple to observe. :cool:
     
  17. Stick_Player

    Stick_Player Banned

    Nov 13, 2009
    Somewhere on the Alaska Panhandle (Juneau)
    Endorser: Plants vs. Zombies Pea Shooters
    There is a V7 chord in measure 6. In the Key of G Minor, that would be a D7 - D, F#, A, C. Is that the chord you are referring to?

    I addressed that already. However, I made a note misspelling (refer to the original). It should read this way:

    Over the V7 (measure 6) use EITHER: Eb or E##, depending on the line direction of your improvisation. No Aeolian Mode! One has the three minor scales to work from (as you did point out). Work with the minor 9/augmented 9 extension i.e., (Eb and E##).

    The D7 could certainly have a Minor 9 extension: D, F#, A, C, Eb. In this case, depending on the your line direction, utilize the F# (major 3rd) and the minor 9th/augmented 9th (Eb and E##).

    Please forgive my confusing blunder! I usually play this tune in E Minor and was thinking that the V7 was a B7. :oops:

    Take it at face-value, as one should take anything I post. I post what I believe. You play exceptionally well.
     
  18. miltslackford

    miltslackford

    Oct 14, 2009
    EDIT - I have removed it again cos I'm not sure about copyright.

    If you PM me I will send a link or something.


    hope this worked, not sure how to post images on forums.

    Any comments on this are appreciated! This tune is a bit of an enigma me to
     
  19. miltslackford

    miltslackford

    Oct 14, 2009
    Great thanks

    Good to have an example - I will get over my Sting aversion and look this tune up.
     
  20. miltslackford

    miltslackford

    Oct 14, 2009
    Thanks - interesting observations/ explanations.
     

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