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Speaker Cabinet building Questions...

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by DryWater'Bass, Dec 5, 2002.

  1. Ok...I've tried this times before...Here goes again

    2 Delta 10's 16Ohm parallel...giving 8 Ohms total

    A Madison Tweeter

    Box Volume of 3.115 total

    16T 24W 18D

    I augmented the demensions of the Avatar B210 and made the volume larger...What size ports would I need to use to get the box tuned to where I could use my 5 string with no problems...I've revamped this post 3 times because of my computer...So If it's incomplete I'll fill in the rest of what needs to be known when I am made aware of such....:D :D :D
  2. geshel


    Oct 2, 2001
    Well, if the specs for the Delta 10 match what WinISD has in the database, you can't. :)

    With two of these in a 3.1 ft^3 box, you're not going to do much better than 60Hz. From what I see, the Delta 10s pretty much suck for low bass. They'll fart out I'm sure on the low B at any reasonable power.
  3. geshel


    Oct 2, 2001
    Eminence says so much on their website:

  4. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
    ok...Change speakers...Since there's no way that will be able to get the lows I need...Slap the Madison 10;s in the design...My calculator said I can port it with a 3"Diam x 9" Deep port and the same demensions...I could tune it to 35Hz..

    Tell me if I'm on the right track...Geshel...Thanks for your enlightenment...More is appreciated MUCHUS more!!:D
  5. geshel


    Oct 2, 2001
    I have no idea. You can tune the box to whatever freq. you want, doesn't mean much without knowing what the drivers will do in such a box. I don't have any specs for the Madison 10s you're using, so I can't even guess.

    P.S. you don't really just "pick" a box size. It's pretty dependent on the speakers you're using. Same for tuning frequency. I'd suggest either going with a design that's been used before (exactly, same dimensions and drivers) or from a kit, or having someone who does know a bit about this design something for you. Or, pick up one of the good introductory books on the subject, like David Weems' books (he had a few similar ones under different titles, like "Desgin, build and test your own loudspeaker systems"), or Vance Dickason's The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook.
  6. Fs 53
    Vas .1.32
    Qts .71
    Qes .85
    Qms 4.28
    Re 6.86
    Rm 41.10
    R1 16.79
    Le 1.21
    Mm 44.95
    spl 94dB
    fq. rs. 40-5000Hz
  7. This is a very high Qts, and typical of a loud driver better suited for PA. It won't have very good transient performance compared to better drivers.

    The 53 Hz resonant frequency tells a story also. Don't expect this driver to perform below its resonant frequency (unless it is an ELF system).
  8. I have the perfect Idea...Does anyone who has expierence at this have a design for a 2x10?I seem to be the one who can't find a suitable driver...What does everyone else use??
  9. No.


    There isn't much available to the general public in 10" drivers. The Eminence B102 is pretty loud, but is about useless below 100 Hz. The BP102 has a lot of bottom, but isn't loud, and requires a lot of cabinet volume, very similar to an Acme B2.

    It also depends on what you want to accomplish. Something loud and small, something low and deep, or ??
  10. geshel


    Oct 2, 2001
    You know, I think Eminence's whole current line of speakers is pretty crappy for low bass. They don't make a 10 or 12 that reaches below 50 Hz it seems.

    I know Avatar uses off-the-shelf Eminence drivers though, and people seemto like their cabinets. You might just consider buying an Avatar. (though, I think most find the 2x10 fairly thin? And recommend the 1x15 underneath it).

    I'm going to look at the parts express selection and see if there are any better 10s out there right now.
  11. geshel


    Oct 2, 2001
    Here's an idea.

    Eminence Delta 12 LF
    Two in a 3 ft^3 box
    Tuned to 35 Hz
    F3 of 60 Hz, F6 of 46Hz, F10 of 34Hz.

    If it's not low enough for you, turn up the bass on the amp or guitar, and it should be able to handle it OK (preferably something that boosts below 60Hz or around 40Hz). The transient response isn't wonderful but really probably on par with most other bass cabs at least.

    That's two 3" diameter by 8" long, or two 4" diameter by 15.3" long ports, BTW.
  12. Well...That's a small box for 2 12's..Only 3 cubic feet...I'm inclined to go with that...and it would be a 4Ohm system with enough bottom to handle me now...If I made the box bigger...It would enhance the response of the box, right?I want my box to be tough, so I will only use 3/4" plywood..And I could build it 24"Hx24W"x18"D and it would have a volume of 4.8 feet and I don't know what the response would be...But since it's bigger than the box you spec'd to me, It would have more response...True?Also...If the box volume increases...What would that do to other aspects of the performance of the box...I'm not really worried...as I have no space restrictions...And I will put casters on the box when it's completed...Geshel, you're the man, dude...I hope you're able to help me further...
  13. geshel


    Oct 2, 2001
    I'd like to make sure you realize I'm not the most experienced person as far as building bass guitar cabs goes. :) You asked, I came up with an idea, but now I'm a bit nervous because if it doesn't work out, it's your wasted time and money.

    Don't forget there's more to a bass cab than what's below 200Hz, too. I don't know what the midrange character of the Delta 12LF is like. Though the response curve on their website looks pretty smooth up to 2k, and not too bad up to 4k.

    Making the box larger. . . well, it will have different effects depending on the driver and tuning frequency. It's not really that simple. In this case, it will:

    1. Bring up the bass a little bit: F3 is now 51Hz, F6 is 36Hz, and F10 is 28Hz. Those numbers are all significantly lower than the previous ones, but if you look at the plot it's not that amazingly different. (the 3 cu ft box is plotted in green, the 4.5 cut ft box in orange)

    2. *increase* the cone excursion by a mm or so over most of the bass range, at the same power level (the bigger box is less springy, so controls the cone motion less). Not a substantial change, though it'll take 15% or so off the power handling maybe.

    3. *increase* the group delay by a couple ms in the same frequency range. Again, not huge. (this is the same as saying "worsen the transient response a little in that frequency range").

    A lot of times, when you change the box volume you'll want to change the frequency too to take advantage of the greater volume or vice versa. In this case 35Hz still works fairly well, it's a bit of a funny alignment anyway.

    Note: the ports need to be a different size now! Shorter, for the same diameter. Two three inch ports would be 4.7" long, two four inch ports 9.3" long (I'd recommend at least two 4". Three 4" would be 15" long, hard to squeeze into a box this size (and you'd need to brace them internally, probably).
  14. Download my spread sheet. All the drivers are worked out for 3 different vented designs, and two sealed designs.

    Eminence (general public) 10" drivers suck.

    The Deltas and Gammas have no bottom.
    The Betas are better but want a big box.
    The Legend BP102 has bottom, but is very inefficient and wants a big box.
    The Legend B102 isn't worth squat below 100 Hz, but would be nice for the Highs of a bi-amp rig.
  15. geshel


    Oct 2, 2001
    :confused: :rolleyes:

    Man, Eminence boggles my mind. I didn't even bother looking at the specs for the Beta 10, as they list it "optimized for lead guitar"!

    Whereas the Gamma 10, "for high-power bass applications", has worse low-end specs all around (higher FS, higher Q, half the Xmax). Though a smaller Vas.

    I also didn't look at the Legend speakers as I didn't realize they have a bass model. Though, indeed, a big box is asked for. Though, it's not too bad when stuffed into a bit smaller box.

    DWB, the Legend BP102 could work OK in a 3 cu. ft. box - some tradeoffs compared to the Delta 12LF in the 4.5 cu. ft. box, but that's a lot smaller box. I'd also bet more on the BP102's midrange sounding good, than the 12LF's.
  16. What if I had one of each in the box...a 12LF and a legend 10"...I'd have midrange and low with it...And a horn would put me kind of in a Triad type dealie...

    Also...I've looked at prices on the Madison 2128...I've heard good things about them...Eddie Pruit used a Conklin 7 on it and it handled it beautifully 35hz-6000Hz range 500W @ 4 Ohms...Maybe I'm better off going with a cabinet from Madison...Anyone heard any of them?
  17. hibeam


    Oct 16, 2002
    I've seen madison speakers at www.speakerhole.com but I dismissed them because they seemed a bit cheap for a bass speaker @ 10 inches (25 dollars!!!) but after reading this thread it seems that I was horribly wrong...and I was going to buy those eminences for my next project!
  18. geshel


    Oct 2, 2001
    If you're going to do a three-way box, I'd probably go for a 15" instead of a 12" on the low side. If you get a speaker that's dedicated to LF (where they don't have to worry as much about mid response) chances are it'll do better.

    If you use to different drivers though, they'll each need their own sub-enclosure, so that complicates the box design. Even if they could split the volume evenly, and use the same tuning frequency, it'd be a bad idea for them to share. They'll interfere with one another in ways that two similar drivers wouldn't. (since they have different resonant frequencies and compliances).
  19. I have 2 2x10 w/ eminence deltas. I can toss about 600 Watts at them w/ my poweramp. I've used a slotted design instead of a tuned port for mine, and those suckers are loud and low. I've suprised a few with them. The numbers don't equal up to it, and the research says things won't sound good.

    They do, shakes the little ceiling sprinkles off when I power things up to silly levels. That's more than enough..it's too much.
  20. geshel


    Oct 2, 2001
    A slot is the same thing as a port effectively. Just shaped different. ;)

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