Stage volume vs PA

Discussion in 'Live Sound [BG]' started by kev451, Aug 22, 2018.

  1. The issue isn’t the cabs. You don’t need more cabs, you need a better sound guy. I’m going to assume you have the guitars amps are mic’ed? As for your rig, if you are playing for 350 people and don’t have your bass through the PA, 300 watts and two cabs will barely cover it.

    2 Cranked 200 watt guitar amps is enough to bury you , the vocals and most of the drums.
    Wisebass and kev451 like this.
  2. Paulabass


    Sep 18, 2017
    My stage guitar rig is 18 watts. I use it in clubs and on festival stages. Less is good, the band will play much tighter.
    gumtown, Medford Bassman and kev451 like this.
  3. kev451

    kev451 Gold Supporting Member

    Feb 23, 2014
    New Jersey
    When in our hourly room it’s been standard room equipment for the studio. (We go to an hourly room 2x a week) for 3-4 hours. They use full cabs and we don’t have this issue. Live I’m a bit below the rhythm guitar players volume on stage. The only adjustments I make would be tone wise. Maybe a little more bass or treble depending on the room. But that’s it.
  4. kev451

    kev451 Gold Supporting Member

    Feb 23, 2014
    New Jersey
    I’ll pay more attention to how they mic the guitar players cabs. I’m usually going DI from the back of my head.
    dbsfgyd1 likes this.
  5. Kro

    Kro Supporting Member

    May 7, 2003
    New Jersey
    For the record, the only thing that knob position tells you is the position of the knobs. I say that with all the respect in the world - it very rarely tells you anything else.
  6. If everything is mic'd and running through the PA then you aren't dealing with a volume problem, just bad tone. I suspect that, regardless of speaker size, the amps just don't produce the kind of sound that you want them to. I've heard some great 2x10 guitar combos.

    Perhaps you should post what make and model of amp is being used so that we all can better determine what the issue might be...
  7. mwbassace


    Jul 26, 2010
    N.W. Ohio
    Your talking about your bass settings in this post. I thought this was about the guitarist rigs/tone/volume? I was talking about the guitar issue.

    My advice comes from almost 30 years of gigging experience most of which we provided the PA and I was co-soundman.
  8. kev451

    kev451 Gold Supporting Member

    Feb 23, 2014
    New Jersey
    Because a lot of people seem to think I’m loud and well I’m that was in reference to that train of thought. I’ve been playing out 20 years never had a volume issue until now.
  9. higain617


    Sep 12, 2013
    Are these tube or solid state guitar combos? I've noticed a lot of high-wattage SS guitar amps lack presence, especially with multiple guitarists.

    I assume these must be SS because Marshall doesn't make a Major combo. A 200w tube amp would blow out walls.
    Mpike and kev451 like this.
  10. Hope it works for you guys. I’m sure there will be a lot of other helpful suggestions on this thread.

    One other suggestion is to record the shows. To get an accurate idea of what is going on, a digital pocket recorder (cheap if you don’t have one) away from the stage would give you a pretty good idea if you have a sound guy issue. Besides it’s a great learning tool for understanding how you sets are working. I would place a higher value on the recording as opposed to audience feedback, unless the feedback came from working musicians.

    A word of caution, a feed from the sound board will not give you an accurate recording, as what will be promenent is what is needed to add in what can’t be heard over your stage volume.
    Omega Monkey and kev451 like this.
  11. Maryvillebass

    Maryvillebass Supporting Member

    Aug 27, 2015
    Maryville, TN
    Mod scooped guitars is my guess. Mid heavy bass.
  12. Eggs Ackly watt eyes thinkin’
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  13. mwbassace


    Jul 26, 2010
    N.W. Ohio
    This hourly room is a practice space? If it is you can't compare that to a live situation.
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  14. Kmonk


    Oct 18, 2012
    South Shore, Massachusetts
    Endorsing Artist: Fender, Spector, Ampeg, Curt Mangan, Nordstrand Pickups, Korg , Conquest Sound
    If you have PA support, stage volume should be kept to a minimum. Your amps should be used so that the band members can hear each other and the PA should be pushing the sound to the audience. High powered amps were originally designed to push the sound to the audience before modern PA systems were developed. Now, medium to large sized venues have PA systems which can handle vocals and all of the instruments. I recently saw a well known band in venue that seats about 3,000 people. The band had no amps on stage. The bass player was running direct through the PA and the guitarist was only using a pedal board. They sounded great. Nice even mix and the volume was tolerable. They had their instruments coming through stage monitors so they could hear each other.
    KristinD and Tritone like this.
  15. jthisdell


    Jun 12, 2014
    Roanoke, VA
    This may be the first time in last 70+ years where the bass player has complained the guitarist is not loud enough.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2018
  16. JeezyMcNuggles

    JeezyMcNuggles Suspended Supporting Member

    Feb 23, 2018
    Santa Maria, CA
    I suck, but nobody really notices
    My passive basses are like twice as loud as any active bass I own. But for real though, you think you sound just right. You wouldn't know, you're not in the audience. You are drowning out your band. It's not them dude, or the sound guy, it's you. Turn your dials a notch or two lower, and turn down the bass knob, and everyone will love to watch your band play. Oh, and "punch" is high mid bite. It adds definition to your low end, and makes a tight low end. It doesnt take hardly any power to produce a punchy tone. It's the rumble that sucks up the juice. It also drowns out the band, muddys up the music, makes your notes disappear in the mix, and makes you think you are not loud.
    jthisdell likes this.
  17. kev451

    kev451 Gold Supporting Member

    Feb 23, 2014
    New Jersey
    Im not sure if you read where i stated that after each soundcheck i have someone pick up my bass and play so that i see where i am. Im extremely aware of my overall tone and volume and where I sit relative to things. I also stated that I sit below volume wise to my rhythm guitar players volume. Example let’s say he’s at 9 I’m at 7 I try and stay below him. Punch can also come a lower register as well. I’m using a Geddy Lee with a Sadowsky onboard preamp which RARELY gets boosted. The pups are stock. The bass has plenty of highs. I’m mostly just giving it a touch of low end.
  18. This is *exactly* what is happening (hypothetically). Very loud double-speaker guitar amps, with speakers side-by-side for the greatest possible horizontal beaming, are pretty much ripping the sound engineer’s head off. So he’s not putting much, if any guitar in the PA. Most listeners, off axis from the beaming guitar rigs, perceive a lack of guitar.

    OP try having your guitarists stand their amps on end, so the two speakers are oriented one above, one below, rather than side to side. And then have them point the amps away from the sound desk.
  19. Stumbo

    Stumbo Guest

    Feb 11, 2008
    IME, you CANNOT run FOH from rhe stage.

    A solution is to Go wireless so you can go FOH and listen/adjust the mix yourself instead of listening to others opinions after the fact.

    IME, Increasing stage volume only fights with FOH.

    Since the guitar players sound weak to you on stage, I suggest getting a guitar monitor mix for yourself. IME,

    IME, The only thing that really matters is the FOH mix, not how the rehearsal sounds or how your hear the band on stage.

    Another suggestion: as a test, at the next gig, get the guitar players to allow you to adjust the volume and tone of their rigs.

    Go FOH to hear how the mix sounds compared to the current mix.
  20. JeezyMcNuggles

    JeezyMcNuggles Suspended Supporting Member

    Feb 23, 2018
    Santa Maria, CA
    I suck, but nobody really notices
    If you are "perfect" sound wise, there wouldn't be any problems. Just saying.
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