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Subway + Helix...

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by sstillwell, Nov 9, 2018.


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  1. sstillwell

    sstillwell

    Nov 20, 2008
    This may be a job for @agedhorse ... my current go-to rig is a D-800+ and either one or two Subway 112 cabinets depending on the room. I'm expecting to receive a Line6 HX Stomp on Monday, so here's what I'm puzzling over...

    What combinations of settings on amp and cabinet get me closest to actual flat response to use as a platform for modeling? I know I'm trying to take out all the yummy baked-in Mesa goodness, but I'm willing to experiment with it with the goal of increasing the flexibility of tones that I have available.

    If the answer is "Set everything at 12:00 and let 'er rip" then that's fine, but I'm thinking that there may be some adjustment needed to compensate for baked in tone.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Jack

    Jack

    Sep 6, 2003
    Northumberland, UK
    Straight into the effects return would bypass all of the amp's voicing, but then you've still got the cabs. I'm not sure there's much you can do about that without a more versatile eq.
     
    MDBass and sstillwell like this.
  3. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Straight into the aux in is ruler flat, but note that there's no HPF, and it's line level (will accommodate a -10dBu signal with the master turned mist of the way up.)

    If that device is instrument level out, plug into the Subway's input. Flat response (pretty close) is with the voice control counter-clockwise and the eq controls set to 12:00. You can use the HPF and deep/bright switches as needed. Using the active switch brings the usable sensitivity to almost -10dBu.
     
    RichSnyder and sstillwell like this.
  4. sstillwell

    sstillwell

    Nov 20, 2008
    The HX Stomp programs are easily editable to include an HPF, so that shouldn't be an issue. I guess I can SMAART the box to see what kind of freq/phase response I get out of it...I could even design an FIR filter to flatten it out and load it as an IR...but that might be getting a little ahead of things...

    The outputs are switchable for instrument/line output level, if I remember right, so I'm good either way.
     
  5. Omega Monkey

    Omega Monkey

    Mar 8, 2015
    Why do you want flat? You'll just have to add more EQ to make it sound like a bass.
     
  6. sstillwell

    sstillwell

    Nov 20, 2008
    Because that's what the HX and other modeling processors do...provide models of different amps and cabinets (including EQ). They sound best/most accurate when played through a full-range, flat response (FRFR) system.
     
  7. Jack

    Jack

    Sep 6, 2003
    Northumberland, UK
    The full helix can do line level output, if the stomp can too then why don't you model whatever amps you want and send that signal into the effects return of the amp. You can then easily send a separate signal that also has cab modelling to the pa straight from the helix, bypassing the amp.

    The only downside is that whatever amp you were modelling would always sound like it was running through your speakers on stage, but with those cabinets that can't be such a bad thing! The audience will hear the modelled cabs too.
     
  8. sstillwell

    sstillwell

    Nov 20, 2008
    Yeah, the HX can be adjusted to use line level for inputs and/or outputs. The rest of trying to compensate for the non-flat response of the cabinet is something I'll either try or not. I can always use two output paths and send the signal without cabinet IR to the amp, and WITH IR to a separate output to feed a DI for the PA. I'll figure something out.
     
  9. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Be sure that you be aware of the possibility of polarity and/or latency differences whenever using non-identical parallel paths. Different paths may not be phase coherent.
     
  10. sstillwell

    sstillwell

    Nov 20, 2008
    Good point. More 'sperimentin' to do, I guess. :) Two weeks' vacation starting today, and the HX Stomp is supposed to be here Monday, so I'll have some tinkerin' time.
     
  11. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    With DSP, and routable signal paths, especially unusual paths, it's critical to verify phase coherency on each path relative to a fixed time reference.
     
  12. My guitarist just got a Helix and he’s planning on doing the two signal paths, one with a cab impulse for the FOH and one without to go to a poweramp/guitar cab. Can phasing be an issue between the amp on stage and the FOH as well?
     
  13. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Not so much between the amp and pa, there's a lack of coherency already and the latency to the pa would be in the right direction anyway.
     
  14. Jack

    Jack

    Sep 6, 2003
    Northumberland, UK
    Are you thinking that a split path, where one path has an extra block for cab emulation, that that path would have a slightly longer delay due to the extra dsp and so there would be phase issues?
     
  15. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Yes, possibly.

    In the pro audio world, where it's common for there to be parallel paths, there is often additional latency added automatically to account for this. I don't know if this is true for the amp modeling products.
     
  16. Omega Monkey

    Omega Monkey

    Mar 8, 2015
    I mean, why model more stuff than you have to? If you have an amp and cabs (good ones at that), use those and leave the modeling for things you DON'T have (effects, etc...).

    As a sound guy, the hardest thing to model is the sound of air. So if you can have the actual sound of air, you're way ahead of the game compared to most people who rely too much on modeling gear. It's getting a lot better, but I'd still always rather work with a band with actual amps on stage that aren't trying to be something they aren't (via modeling), than a band that's completely "in the box".

    If you just wanted to model everything for whatever reason, you spent a whole lot of money on all the wrong stuff, and should have gotten a good power amp and the flattest full range PA stack you could afford (which you would still have to run pink noise through and tweak to get to be "flat", and do that in each and every venue for best results). Or you could let a real amp and real speakers do their job.
     
  17. sstillwell

    sstillwell

    Nov 20, 2008
    You're totally missing the point, but it's all good. Thanks for the input.
     
    midfieldgeneral likes this.

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